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  1. #1
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Default Hobgoblin (Roderick Kingsley) Appreciation (2019)

    First appearance (with real identity unrevealed):
    Amazing Spider-Man #238 (March 1983)




    and from
    The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Vol. 1 No. 5 (May 1983):

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Hail to the second best Goblin (after only Green Goblin) of them all, the others aren't even close.
    "I'm sorry, but your story isn't adding up. I think your religion is a lie to keep my mouth shut."

  3. #3
    More eldritch than thou Venomous Mask's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Hail to the second best Goblin (after only Green Goblin) of them all, the others aren't even close.
    I agree, he was a mastermind back in the 80s and I'm glad that Marvel retconned his 'death' as just being a brainwashed Ned. I am sad that he was out of the picture for almost twenty years (and the Hobgoblin in general made very little appearances in that time either).
    "I should describe my known nature as tripartite, my interests consisting of three parallel and disassociated groups; a) love of the strange and the fantastic, b) love of abstract truth and scientific logic, c) love of the ancient and the permanent. Sundry combinations of these strains will probably account for my...odd tastes, and eccentricities."

  4. #4
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    I'm very curious to know how Stern was originally planning to reveal Kingsley as Hobgoblin before he decided to just let others decide who it was behind the mask.


    It's funny, despite being one of the higher tiered villains Hobgoblin has made it into animation twice, and Roderick Kingsley only made it into animation once... Even both Cletus and Carnage have gotten more than that!





    I'd say Hobgoblin is one of the few "Copycat" villains to do it right.

  5. #5

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    Ah, the Hobgoblin. I actually prefer him to Norman. It's just something about how mysterious he was initially combined with his design. Would definitely not mind the MCU using him instead of Greenie.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    I'm very curious to know how Stern was originally planning to reveal Kingsley as Hobgoblin before he decided to just let others decide who it was behind the mask.
    In interviews Stern said he was very much an iterative writer. He had plans and ideas but not a fully plotted out roadmap. So no he never had a full plan for how that reveal would have happened. He said once that his plan was to set-up the Hobgoblin mystery like the Green Goblin one, only to reveal it for one issue later. Green Goblin showed up in ASM #14, and then got revealed in ASM #40. So that's 27 issues of buildup and payoff. So since Hobgoblin first appeared in ASM #238, that means he should ideally be revealed 28 issues later in ASM #266.

    That was one reason why Defalco decided to go against it. Stern in his run had not set up the identical twin thing adequately, Roderick Kingsley also wasn't close enough or connected to Peter enough that it could work. And so the idea was to spin wheels around the character since the mystery became more compelling than the payoff.

    I actually wonder if that might not be for the best. Make Hobgoblin the unknown unsolved and unsolvable mystery. The Spider-Man version of the Zodiac or since this is New York, Son of Sam. A lot of people wonder if the Son of Sam really was David Berkowitz, or if the murders were ultimately taken credit for by a glory hound. The Joker for instance is a character whose origins are unknown and unknowable and that could be one way you could do it.

    For me Hobgoblin is a case of a character whose purpose and intent is totally obsolete. He was created as a permanent replacement for Norman Osborn and to be Spider-Man's great archnemesis. That ended when his mystery ran its well dry and got defused and then Venom came and usurped the role of Arch-Enemy, and then Carnage after that also became a bigger deal. Then Norman Osborn got resurrected and established himself as top goblin, so now Kingsley can't play the role he was originally created for.

    My advice is to shuffle Kingsley to Miles Morales and make him a villain for Miles. Or send him to face down Spider-Gwen. Right now he's a tinkerer type character who makes costumes for other B and C listers.

  7. #7
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    From back when Ned Leeds was apparently the Hobgoblin:


    originally in
    The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Deluxe Edition Vol. 2 No. 17
    (August 1987)

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In interviews Stern said he was very much an iterative writer. He had plans and ideas but not a fully plotted out roadmap. So no he never had a full plan for how that reveal would have happened. He said once that his plan was to set-up the Hobgoblin mystery like the Green Goblin one, only to reveal it for one issue later. Green Goblin showed up in ASM #14, and then got revealed in ASM #40. So that's 27 issues of buildup and payoff. So since Hobgoblin first appeared in ASM #238, that means he should ideally be revealed 28 issues later in ASM #266.

    That was one reason why Defalco decided to go against it. Stern in his run had not set up the identical twin thing adequately, Roderick Kingsley also wasn't close enough or connected to Peter enough that it could work. And so the idea was to spin wheels around the character since the mystery became more compelling than the payoff.

    I actually wonder if that might not be for the best. Make Hobgoblin the unknown unsolved and unsolvable mystery. The Spider-Man version of the Zodiac or since this is New York, Son of Sam. A lot of people wonder if the Son of Sam really was David Berkowitz, or if the murders were ultimately taken credit for by a glory hound. The Joker for instance is a character whose origins are unknown and unknowable and that could be one way you could do it.

    For me Hobgoblin is a case of a character whose purpose and intent is totally obsolete. He was created as a permanent replacement for Norman Osborn and to be Spider-Man's great archnemesis. That ended when his mystery ran its well dry and got defused and then Venom came and usurped the role of Arch-Enemy, and then Carnage after that also became a bigger deal. Then Norman Osborn got resurrected and established himself as top goblin, so now Kingsley can't play the role he was originally created for.

    My advice is to shuffle Kingsley to Miles Morales and make him a villain for Miles. Or send him to face down Spider-Gwen. Right now he's a tinkerer type character who makes costumes for other B and C listers.
    Despite Hobgoblin being one of my favorite Spidey villains, I will say that he's definitely a character where the mask matters more than the man, which is why when Kinsgley did finally get animated Marvel was cool with changing his race in the adaption, yet wouldn't budge with someone like Rhino in the same adaption.

    One of Kingsley's greatest achievements aside from altering the Green Goblin's costume was re creating Norman's Goblin formula with less explosive results. I'm curious to know why he hasn't been mass producing THAT? Is it because Norman's journals were destroyed and Kingsley didn't even decide to make notes of his own? (which I'm SURE I remember him taking notes...but whatever).

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    Despite Hobgoblin being one of my favorite Spidey villains, I will say that he's definitely a character where the mask matters more than the man, which is why when Kinsgley did finally get animated Marvel was cool with changing his race in the adaption, yet wouldn't budge with someone like Rhino in the same adaption.

    One of Kingsley's greatest achievements aside from altering the Green Goblin's costume was re creating Norman's Goblin formula with less explosive results. I'm curious to know why he hasn't been mass producing THAT? Is it because Norman's journals were destroyed and Kingsley didn't even decide to make notes of his own? (which I'm SURE I remember him taking notes...but whatever).
    In the Kingsleydom of the Blind, the one-formula'd man is Goblin. I mean giving the formula would dial down the entire logic and purpose of being goblin. Where you are king of the mountain. IT would create a number of tough guys just like you. Now that Norman is back and since he destroyed Kingsley's empire and Kingsley is on the QT and hush hush, mass-marketing the formula will be hard.

    That actually is one of my problems with Roderick Kingsley. He's a businessman and fashion designer. That kind of does explain why he'd be drawn to that swish looking cape and the Renfaire look of the Hobgoblin. It also explains him designing villain outfits and motifs. What that doesn't explain is how this guy would know about chemistry and stuff to improve on Norman's formula? Where does the latter come from? And again, why is Kingsley so obsessed with perfecting the Green Goblin formula. I mean yeah the formula makes one super-stong and gives reflexes but on a base level, Goblin is not the strongest there is. Spider-Man is stronger than him. Electro is more powerful as is the Sandman. Dr. Octopus isn't insane and he has durable super-strong arms that makes him a consistent threat...why go for the Green Goblin formula and recreate that or fix the insanity, when Electro, Sandman, Dr. Octopus aren't insane and are equally if not more powerful. So there's a big disconnect there.

    Admittedly this is not a problem exclusive to Kingsley. It's a problem with a number of Spider-Man villains who as a rule tend not to be written or keyed to the right genre. So Miles Warren, a hack professor at ESU with a creepy crush on a coed invented human cloning and somehow called himself the Jackal. Why? That's just so random. Gerry Conway wrote Jackal as a one-off villain, so not a problem there. In Spectacular Annual 8 he said that Jackal was a hack who created a drug that altered real people into lookalikes of his target...i.e. he never cloned anyone and that to me is a more consistent and believable explanation. So that explained that...but those behind the Clone Saga to make their criminally bad story happen ignored all this and made Miles Warren into an actual cloning genius.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 02-15-2019 at 04:51 PM.

  10. #10
    Spectacular Member JGC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy The Crabbo View Post
    Ah, the Hobgoblin. I actually prefer him to Norman. It's just something about how mysterious he was initially combined with his design. Would definitely not mind the MCU using him instead of Greenie.
    I would love if the MCU did the whole Rose/Hobgoblin storyline in the 3rd Spidey film. Spidey needs to tackle organized crime in NYC and with Kingpin introduced in Daredevil, they could easily tie Richard Fisk to Wilson somehow and bring in Hobgoblin as the big, bad nemesis thisfilms deserves.

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  11. #11
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In the Kingsleydom of the Blind, the one-formula'd man is Goblin. I mean giving the formula would dial down the entire logic and purpose of being goblin. Where you are king of the mountain. IT would create a number of tough guys just like you. Now that Norman is back and since he destroyed Kingsley's empire and Kingsley is on the QT and hush hush, mass-marketing the formula will be hard.

    That actually is one of my problems with Roderick Kingsley. He's a businessman and fashion designer. That kind of does explain why he'd be drawn to that swish looking cape and the Renfaire look of the Hobgoblin. It also explains him designing villain outfits and motifs. What that doesn't explain is how this guy would know about chemistry and stuff to improve on Norman's formula? Where does the latter come from? And again, why is Kingsley so obsessed with perfecting the Green Goblin formula. I mean yeah the formula makes one super-stong and gives reflexes but on a base level, Goblin is not the strongest there is. Spider-Man is stronger than him. Electro is more powerful as is the Sandman. Dr. Octopus isn't insane and he has durable super-strong arms that makes him a consistent threat...why go for the Green Goblin formula and recreate that or fix the insanity, when Electro, Sandman, Dr. Octopus aren't insane and are equally if not more powerful. So there's a big disconnect there.

    Admittedly this is not a problem exclusive to Kingsley. It's a problem with a number of Spider-Man villains who as a rule tend not to be written or keyed to the right genre. So Miles Warren, a hack professor at ESU with a creepy crush on a coed invented human cloning and somehow called himself the Jackal. Why? That's just so random. Gerry Conway wrote Jackal as a one-off villain, so not a problem there. In Spectacular Annual 8 he said that Jackal was a hack who created a drug that altered real people into lookalikes of his target...i.e. he never cloned anyone and that to me is a more consistent and believable explanation. So that explained that...but those behind the Clone Saga to make their criminally bad story happen ignored all this and made Miles Warren into an actual cloning genius.
    Not to derail the thread that's supposed to be about the Hobgoblin, but the Jackal would've made a lot more sense if his hidden backer turned out to be Mister Sinister from the X-Men, using him and his obsession to get at Spider-Man's DNA for whatever potential Sinister thought he could mine from it. Hell, if you don't want to tie the Jackal to Mister Sinister but still want a semi-logical means for Warren to have mastered human cloning as well as he did, hook him up with Weapon X (or its umbrella organization Weapon Plus) or one of its offshoots and have them backing his cloning projects, again using him and his obsession to get at Spider-Man's DNA so they can weaponize it and his abilities against mutants.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Not to derail the thread that's supposed to be about the Hobgoblin, but the Jackal would've made a lot more sense if his hidden backer turned out to be Mister Sinister from the X-Men, using him and his obsession to get at Spider-Man's DNA for whatever potential Sinister thought he could mine from it. Hell, if you don't want to tie the Jackal to Mister Sinister but still want a semi-logical means for Warren to have mastered human cloning as well as he did, hook him up with Weapon X (or its umbrella organization Weapon Plus) or one of its offshoots and have them backing his cloning projects, again using him and his obsession to get at Spider-Man's DNA so they can weaponize it and his abilities against mutants.
    I love Mr. Sinister being the mystery backer (even though I guess it was kind of retconned years later to indirectly be Norman Osborn) it makes so much sense. May I use your idea in one of my fanfics story (I'll credit you of course)? I won't use it unless you give me permission.
    "I'm sorry, but your story isn't adding up. I think your religion is a lie to keep my mouth shut."

  13. #13

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    I didn't like it when his head got cut off.. but of course that was another innocent dupe.
    at this point, I don't know what his status quo is. At one point was Kingsley selling goblin tech?

  14. #14
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Not to derail the thread that's supposed to be about the Hobgoblin, but the Jackal would've made a lot more sense if his hidden backer turned out to be Mister Sinister from the X-Men, using him and his obsession to get at Spider-Man's DNA for whatever potential Sinister thought he could mine from it. Hell, if you don't want to tie the Jackal to Mister Sinister but still want a semi-logical means for Warren to have mastered human cloning as well as he did, hook him up with Weapon X (or its umbrella organization Weapon Plus) or one of its offshoots and have them backing his cloning projects, again using him and his obsession to get at Spider-Man's DNA so they can weaponize it and his abilities against mutants.
    Over in the recent Tales of Suspense mini-series with Hawkeye and Winter Soldier, the Red Room was also doing cloning of the Black Widow(s), so that could also have been linked.

  15. #15
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I love Mr. Sinister being the mystery backer (even though I guess it was kind of retconned years later to indirectly be Norman Osborn) it makes so much sense. May I use your idea in one of my fanfics story (I'll credit you of course)? I won't use it unless you give me permission.
    Sure, go ahead. And you can credit me as Rider Paladin, my FanFiction.Net handle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    I didn't like it when his head got cut off.. but of course that was another innocent dupe.
    at this point, I don't know what his status quo is. At one point was Kingsley selling goblin tech?
    Last I saw, he was part of Aaron Davis's Sinister Six in the final arc of Brian Bendis's Spider-Man: Miles Morales.

    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Over in the recent Tales of Suspense mini-series with Hawkeye and Winter Soldier, the Red Room was also doing cloning of the Black Widow(s), so that could also have been linked.
    Hmm, that could work. Maybe the Red Room wanted to see if Spider-Man's abilities could be replicated in their Black Widow agents, or even to restart the Wolf Spider initiative.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

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