Wonder Woman # 64 review

[Gaelforce]

And what exactly is Themyscira.

It's a place full of humans. It's a community of people living together.

Let's be clear about this. Themyscira is not Vulcan or the Klingon homeworld. They are not aliens. Yes, they encounter things that are not normal in our reality but their reactions to those things will be those of people, not strange unknowable beings.

The problem here is created in the mind of the person who sees Diana's experience as entirely outside that of a human being. But I am sure that at some point that Diana skinned her knee and had to be potty trained. One only has to watch the first fifteen minutes of the 2017 movie to see how Jenkins and her creative team gave as a very real, very relatable young Diana - curious, capricious, enamored of her aunt and often defiant of her mother. That is a very human experience, IMO.

So perhaps what GWW thinks she knows just isn't so, but rather than image she has created for herself and is acting as a stumbling block for her to write more freely. By all account she did a great job on Ms Marvel.

It is times like this that I truly wish we had a 'like' button.

This is spot on. She didn't live in an alien environment, nor was she 'above' humanity as gods and demi-gods are often shown to be. She was raised as a human being, by human beings who are long lived/immortal. Are her experiences different from everyone else's? Pretty much, yeah, but that doesn't make her out-of-touch or not-human any more than a boy who grew up in a monastary or a member of an isolated tribe living in the jungle.

Different? Yes. Not human? Absolutely not.

She knows how to relate to people because she grew up surrounded by them. Her upbringing was unique, but not devoid of human contact, emotions or mannerisms.

[starlight25]

And what exactly is Themyscira.

It's a place full of humans. It's a community of people living together.

Let's be clear about this. Themyscira is not Vulcan or the Klingon homeworld. They are not aliens. Yes, they encounter things that are not normal in our reality but their reactions to those things will be those of people, not strange unknowable beings.

The problem here is created in the mind of the person who sees Diana's experience as entirely outside that of a human being. But I am sure that at some point that Diana skinned her knee and had to be potty trained. One only has to watch the first fifteen minutes of the 2017 movie to see how Jenkins and her creative team gave as a very real, very relatable young Diana - curious, capricious, enamored of her aunt and often defiant of her mother. That is a very human experience, IMO.

So perhaps what GWW thinks she knows just isn't so, but rather than image she has created for herself and is acting as a stumbling block for her to write more freely. By all account she did a great job on Ms Marvel.

Very well said. But are we really surprised about gww's words? She ain't the first to say things like that. She is one of those writers that fill their mouth about how Wonder Woman is such an icon. But they really know next to nothing about her. They are just looking at her as a symbol, not as a character. That's why they feel the need to start their runs with who is WW. The reason why they change her origin,powers, supporting cast, etc. When the truth is, that a big problem Wonder Woman has, is people like gww often have ideas on how to 'spice her up,' most of which has been done several times, when most of her best runs are when they aren't trying to reinvert her into something else, but rather running with what she's got and building on it. So far gww WW feels weak,insecure and lifeless in terms of personality. So i ask this question to all the fans here. Is that Wonder Woman to you?

[kjn]

And what exactly is Themyscira?

It's a place full of humans. It's a community of people living together.

The problem here is created in the mind of the person who sees Diana's experience as entirely outside that of a human being. But I am sure that at some point that Diana skinned her knee and had to be potty trained. One only has to watch the first fifteen minutes of the 2017 movie to see how Jenkins and her creative team gave us a very real, very relatable young Diana - curious, capricious, enamored of her aunt and often defiant of her mother. That is a very human experience, IMO.

So perhaps what GWW thinks she knows just isn't so, but rather is an image she has created for herself and is acting as a stumbling block for her to write more freely. By all accounts she did a great job on Ms Marvel.

I think you are missing the point from where Wilson writes. She is not denying that Diana is human (for some values of human). Wilson is rather talking about humanity, or the human beings who live, or have lived, that we know or can read their writings. She is coming from a place where she sees that Diana is from a culture that was the most advanced in the world 3,000 years (or more) ago, made up of immortal women, and that has developed without contact with the outside world since then. Wilson experienced culture shock firsthand when she went to live in Egypt, and what hit Diana was far more extreme.

Diana's views of fundamental practices, memes, and assumptions are literally out of this world, despite her having skinned her knee or had to be potty trained. The society where she grew up had entirely different views on classes, labour divisions, gender divisions and patterns, or sexuality. All of us have internalised that. Diana haven't. Their views of concepts on freedom, justice, or truth are likely to be rather different from most of us. Their ways of talking to each other or the perception of gestures are also really different.

And when I read interviews with Wilson, and reviews of her fiction, Wilson appears to be a world-builder at heart. I read the same sensibility from her as I do from Ursula K Le Guin, Lois Bujold, or Nalo Hopkinson. To her, to understand Diana means she has to understand Themyscira. And quite frankly, I'm not sure any writer yet has tried to dig into this question, or explore the kind of culture shock that Diana would receive in Man's World. (And culture shock is central to Wilson's writings.)

Marston simply made Diana into a superpowered modern woman. Pérez had some superficial examples, but he made Themyscira into some sort of Platonic ideal state, and shied away from any examination how Diana would view our society. Rucka mentioned Diana's philosophy in is first run and how it was received, but very little is told about it. Simone dug into some aspects of Themysciran culture, but largely worked with a depopulated island. Rucka's second run had some culture shock, but it was largely relegated to ice cream and drinking cola. Morrison made the Themyscirans into nasty misandrists with Diana being the only open-minded among them. De Liz sidestepped it by making Diana depressed and suffering from amnesia. And the movie scratched it by having Diana act somewhat like a 21st century woman put in the First World War period.

Diana is human. But she came from a culture that in some ways probably would be more alien to us here than the Mycenaean Greece.

[Konja7]

Maybe a world-builder writer isn't right for Wonder Woman.

World-builder writers work pretty good when you want to create fantasy worlds, but the characters tend to be secondary.

However, I think a Wonder Woman comic should focus more on Diana, while her world should be secondary (and used to develop her).

[brettc1]

I think you are missing the point from where Wilson writes. She is not denying that Diana is human (for some values of human). Wilson is rather talking about humanity, or the human beings who live, or have lived, that we know or can read their writings. She is coming from a place where she sees that Diana is from a culture that was the most advanced in the world 3,000 years (or more) ago, made up of immortal women, and that has developed without contact with the outside world since then. Wilson experienced culture shock firsthand when she went to live in Egypt, and what hit Diana was far more extreme.

Diana's views of fundamental practices, memes, and assumptions are literally out of this world, despite her having skinned her knee or had to be potty trained. The society where she grew up had entirely different views on classes, labour divisions, gender divisions and patterns, or sexuality. All of us have internalised that. Diana haven't. Their views of concepts on freedom, justice, or truth are likely to be rather different from most of us. Their ways of talking to each other or the perception of gestures are also really different.

And when I read interviews with Wilson, and reviews of her fiction, Wilson appears to be a world-builder at heart. I read the same sensibility from her as I do from Ursula K Le Guin, Lois Bujold, or Nalo Hopkinson. To her, to understand Diana means she has to understand Themyscira. And quite frankly, I'm not sure any writer yet has tried to dig into this question, or explore the kind of culture shock that Diana would receive in Man's World. (And culture shock is central to Wilson's writings.)

Marston simply made Diana into a superpowered modern woman. Pérez had some superficial examples, but he made Themyscira into some sort of Platonic ideal state, and shied away from any examination how Diana would view our society. Rucka mentioned Diana's philosophy in is first run and how it was received, but very little is told about it. Simone dug into some aspects of Themysciran culture, but largely worked with a depopulated island. Rucka's second run had some culture shock, but it was largely relegated to ice cream and drinking cola. Morrison made the Themyscirans into nasty misandrists with Diana being the only open-minded among them. De Liz sidestepped it by making Diana depressed and suffering from amnesia. And the movie scratched it by having Diana act somewhat like a 21st century woman put in the First World War period.

Diana is human. But she came from a culture that in some ways probably would be more alien to us here than the Mycenaean Greece.

But still, nevertheless, human.

Wilson chooses to focus on the differences. But these are, by and large, superficial. Human beings are still human beings, and while certain cultural practices and points of view may differ there are commonalities that are far more ingrained.

Regarding the platonic society patter, this is no different to what we saw in Stat Trek: TNG, and that was a show that went for 7 seasons. The reason is that the characters are shown as completely relatable, despite the very different world around them. They laugh, they cry, they fall in and out love, and they struggle with moral issues in a way that the audience found completely understandable. Because you don't make 150 episodes of a show that nobody can relate to.

Again, one only has to look at the 2017 movie to see the effects of Culture shock. Some of thought provoking, some are merely hilarious, though even these can be quite revealing. I don't need a long expository speech to know that the Amazons are very liberal and non-judgemental when it comes to nudity, because I can see it in Diana's reaction to Steve in the bath.

But the most significant instance of this are NOT because Diana lacks human experience. Rather, they are that she is in some ways more human than many of those around her.

As to Themyscira - all I can say is that if your assessment is correct and the goal is to create it as a culture that is so vastly different that it becomes something she describes as 'outside human experience' = and that then becomes an obstacle to finding your lead characters voice - well, you've really gone and made a rod for own back, and maybe that is something that should have been thought out well and truly in advance instead of doing it on the fly.

[kjn]

Maybe a world-builder writer isn't right for Wonder Woman.

World-builder writers work pretty good when you want to create fantasy worlds, but the characters tend to be secondary.

However, I think a Wonder Woman comic should focus more on Diana, while her world should be secondary (and used to develop her).

I think this is the first time that anyone would call the characters written by Le Guin, Bujold, or Hopkinson secondary.

Do note that at the level of Le Guin, Bujold, or Hopkinson, the world-building and the characters form an integral whole. The characters come from the world, influence it, and are influenced by it. They are also the vehicle through which the world is explored. I'm not sure if Wilson is on their level yet, but she clearly has the same sensibility and the talent needed.

[Konja7]

I think this is the first time that anyone would call the characters written by Le Guin, Bujold, or Hopkinson secondary.

Do note that at the level of Le Guin, Bujold, or Hopkinson, the world-building and the characters form an integral whole. The characters come from the world, influence it, and are influenced by it. They are also the vehicle through which the world is explored. I'm not sure if Wilson is on their level yet, but she clearly has the same sensibility and the talent needed.

I did not say that these writers specifically neglect their characters.

I say world-building writers tend to put characters as secondary to the creation of the world. I mean Wilson is a world-building writer and Diana has been relegated.


Anyway, my point is that maybe a "character-building" writer will be better for Wonder Woman.

[kjn]

Anyway, my point is that maybe a "character-building" writer will be better for Wonder Woman.

Like whom?

(And note that I wouldn't diss on Wilson's character-building and character-creation skills at all. But she clearly views her characters as the result of the society around them.)

[starlight25]

Like whom?

(And note that I wouldn't diss on Wilson's character-building and character-creation skills at all. But she clearly views her characters as the result of the society around them.)

gww's skills to write characters don't show in her WW. Her WW is insecure, her WW feels lifeless and weak.

[kjn]

Correction with loss of nerd cred: in earlier discussion I referred to Nalo Hopkinson. I was thinking about NK Jemisin. Of course, Hopkinson is also great writer.

[brettc1]

It is times like this that I truly wish we had a 'like' button.

This is spot on. She didn't live in an alien environment, nor was she 'above' humanity as gods and demi-gods are often shown to be. She was raised as a human being, by human beings who are long lived/immortal. Are her experiences different from everyone else's? Pretty much, yeah, but that doesn't make her out-of-touch or not-human any more than a boy who grew up in a monastary or a member of an isolated tribe living in the jungle.

Different? Yes. Not human? Absolutely not.

She knows how to relate to people because she grew up surrounded by them. Her upbringing was unique, but not devoid of human contact, emotions or mannerisms.

Thanks GF.

It is certainly true that being immersed in a different culture can be a very jarring experience. Little things that one takes for granted can be serious insults in another part of the world. A person going from New York to Live in Beijing would see profound differences.

On the other hand, they are not COMPLETELY alien. Families are still families.

And let’s not forget - Wonder Woman is REALLY intelligent. While it’s always interesting to see her compare her cultural upbringing to our own, it’s a bit tedious to see her arc after arc where she stumbles over basic concepts or practices. I well recall the uproar during the Picoult run when, after years of living among us, Diana was baffled by the simple concept of pumping gas into a car’s fuel tank.