Skyland, Underworld and the Gods

[SiegePerilous02]

So, I think all of us have seen Grant Morrison's Multiverse map by now, which happens to be one of the COOLEST things I've seen in a while. I may be more critical of Morrison than most, but I can't deny that his sheer creativity blows me away.

Onto the map itself, it shows eight realms in what Morrison has called "the God Sphere," four for each section of order and chaos: Dream/Nightmare, Heaven/Hell, New Genesis/Apokolips, and lastly, Skyland/Underworld. The latter pair is said to be where all Pagan deities reside, including the Greek Gods. This pretty much confirms that there is one set of Greek Olympians throughout the entire Multiverse, and they can exist on/visit all Earths at once, rather than each Earth having their own version.

I think this pretty much confirms that the Roman pantheon is something separate. The early issues of Earth 2 established that that version of Wonder Woman worships the Roman Gods, and I believe they were mostly wiped out by the Apokolips invasion. Obviously, the majority of the Greek pantheon has appeared in the main solo title, and Hermes at least looks vastly different from Mercury, so it's safe to assume they are different beings. But in a recent issue of Aquaman, Hercules refers to Sea and calls him both Poseidon and Neptune, implying that the Poseidon in main DCU canon goes by both names. There's also Barbara having the last name of "Minerva," and (I think) her worshiping Moon by the name of "Diana."

So what does all of this mean? Is it likely that Azzarello just wrote his story without giving a crap about what Morrison planned, or did they share notes? And what does this say about how Morrison will depict the Gods in Earth One, if he does at all?

[SofNascimento]

Well, that would make Azzarello's Wonder Woman unique is all the multiver. Which I enjoy... unfortunatelly the chances of some writer explore this are slim.

[Danvidar]

This came up on the thread discussing the map found here: http://community.comicbookresources....orrison/page14

Here are some posts on the subject:

That hypothesis have a small problem: If there is only one "Heaven", and if I understand, one Olympus, one Valhalla, one hell... How could Darkseid forces kill Mercury and alll the gods in earth-2 but they are still alive in prime earth/earth-0?

The Fifth Dimensional forces - all these godbeings in higher dimensions - are still probably filtered and affected by whatever they're witnessing. Like, Bat-Mite reflects whichever Bruce is viewing him (in the Silver Age he was played straight but to Modern Batman he's irrational). Like light through a prism, they splinter when they come in contact with lower dimensions, sort of like how the monitor turned into monitors. (Thank god - it means if he invades a different Earth, Darkseid might not look like a disco dingbat)

But typically being a bit more omnipotent, a lot of these godbeings are "aware of" their splintered selves. Bat-Mite for instance could break the fourth wall and turn into like "DKR style Bat-Mite" and crack a grim n gritty joke.

Darkseid if he invaded Captain Carrot's earth might take on a more cartoon aspect, and reflect the "rules" of that particular universe.

There's only one "Hell", but like DeMatteis' Phantom Stranger run has been exploring - Hell is already a reflection of you. It's your own, personal Hell. And since the denizens of the 5th Dimension are imagination - living ideas - the collective idea of Etrigan in Prime Earth might not be the same idea in Superdemon Earth.

[SiegePerilous02]

This came up on the thread discussing the map found here: http://community.comicbookresources....orrison/page14

Here are some posts on the subject:

Interesting. If I'm understanding the second post correctly (it's kind of hard to wrap my head around certain Morrison concepts, lol), than that means Mercury is one aspect of the Messenger, while the Hermes we know in Azzarello's book is another. Maybe when one incarnation dies, that doesn't necessarily mean the whole will and he can still exist on other Earths.

This makes me wonder just how many times Ares has encountered Diana. Presumably, at least some of the alternate Wonder Woman have opposed him. Hell, maybe Superwoman is the one he succeeded in corrupting? It does seem strange that his encounter with young Diana in #0 created such a huge change in him. Maybe he'd just been bested by her so many times that main Earth Diana was the last straw?

[Vonter Voman]

I don't see any reason for Azzarello's story to doesn't fit into this. He puts the New Gods more or less at the same level of the Old Gods, and First Born is a threat to the source, "to the very existence". The only thing that could be problematic is the "above the multiverse" thing, but while the gods act like there is only the Prime Earth, it isn't something addressed.

You know what would be cool? If at one moment all pantheons ruled over Earth, but at some point they divided the multiverse. So the Greek got Prime Earth, the Romans Earth 2, etc. There are many problems that can come up with this, but it's the writers' job to try and fix

I don't think the Roman should be the same as the Greek, only with different names. If there's inconsistency, then it's Aquaman. Diana of Earth 2 simply has Roman gods instead of Greek.

EDIT: I just checked and they don't call Artemis "Diana" in any moment of the Cheetah story, not even Artemis actually. They just call her "Goddess of the Hunt".

[Dr. Hurt]

So, I think all of us have seen Grant Morrison's Multiverse map by now, which happens to be one of the COOLEST things I've seen in a while. I may be more critical of Morrison than most, but I can't deny that his sheer creativity blows me away.

Onto the map itself, it shows eight realms in what Morrison has called "the God Sphere," four for each section of order and chaos: Dream/Nightmare, Heaven/Hell, New Genesis/Apokolips, and lastly, Skyland/Underworld. The latter pair is said to be where all Pagan deities reside, including the Greek Gods. This pretty much confirms that there is one set of Greek Olympians throughout the entire Multiverse, and they can exist on/visit all Earths at once, rather than each Earth having their own version.

I think this pretty much confirms that the Roman pantheon is something separate. The early issues of Earth 2 established that that version of Wonder Woman worships the Roman Gods, and I believe they were mostly wiped out by the Apokolips invasion. Obviously, the majority of the Greek pantheon has appeared in the main solo title, and Hermes at least looks vastly different from Mercury, so it's safe to assume they are different beings. But in a recent issue of Aquaman, Hercules refers to Sea and calls him both Poseidon and Neptune, implying that the Poseidon in main DCU canon goes by both names. There's also Barbara having the last name of "Minerva," and (I think) her worshiping Moon by the name of "Diana."

So what does all of this mean? Is it likely that Azzarello just wrote his story without giving a crap about what Morrison planned, or did they share notes? And what does this say about how Morrison will depict the Gods in Earth One, if he does at all?

I'm willing to bet that to most writers the greek and roman gods are the same and their names interchangeable. Neptune, Poseidon, whatever, he's the god of the sea.

At least that's my theory. That they dont really need to overthink it. They editors let worse stuff fly, so using a roman god name in earth prime probably went unnoticed by them.

As for Morrison, he rarely shares what he writes with others, and others rarely follow his example. Unless some editor forces other writers to fall in line, they'll do their own thing and ignore him. Either because they dont like him, havent read him, dont care, dont understand him, etc. At the end of the day when he was writing Inc, a book about a happy Bruce teaming up with heroes around the world to beat countless secret organizations and villains, Snyder was slowly taking reign of the franchise and writing Batman tripping balls because some new organization came out of nowhere and surprised him. He was also a loner, semi psychotic Batman who played with his parents bullets that he kept from the murder.

Consistency is a difficult concept for comics it seems.

[Vonter Voman]

The Greek and Roman Pantheons were separate after CoIE, then they became only one (Greek) in War of the Gods.
But in the New 52, I took it from Earth 2 that the Roman were separated form the Greek again. I just didn't know at the time that they were outside of the multiverse of Earths.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't think the Roman should be the same as the Greek, only with different names. If there's inconsistency, then it's Aquaman. Diana of Earth 2 simply has Roman gods instead of Greek.

EDIT: I just checked and they don't call Artemis "Diana" in any moment of the Cheetah story, not even Artemis actually. They just call her "Goddess of the Hunt".

You are right that Azzarello is the primary visionary for the Greek Gods, and I'm not pinning any of the blame for inconsistency on him, more on Jeff Parker. I also find it strange that Hercules was referred to by his Roman name instead of the Greek Heracles, but that's a weird mix up that's not exclusive to DC comics. I guess Hercules is just the more iconic name for American audiences.

And yeah, I just checked my copy of 23.1 too. I think it would be a cool idea though, if Barbara fixated on Diana because she shared a name with her patron Goddess. Plus it would reinforce the "Dark Mirror" aspect if Cheetah has a connection to the Roman Gods while Diana is with the Greeks.

I'm willing to bet that to most writers the greek and roman gods are the same and their names interchangeable. Neptune, Poseidon, whatever, he's the god of the sea.

At least that's my theory. That they dont really need to overthink it. They editors let worse stuff fly, so using a roman god name in earth prime probably went unnoticed by them.

As for Morrison, he rarely shares what he writes with others, and others rarely follow his example. Unless some editor forces other writers to fall in line, they'll do their own thing and ignore him. Either because they dont like him, havent read him, dont care, dont understand him, etc. At the end of the day when he was writing Inc, a book about a happy Bruce teaming up with heroes around the world to beat countless secret organizations and villains, Snyder was slowly taking reign of the franchise and writing Batman tripping balls because some new organization came out of nowhere and surprised him. He was also a loner, semi psychotic Batman who played with his parents bullets that he kept from the murder.

Consistency is a difficult concept for comics it seems.

I guess it goes both ways: Morrison should probably share his plans so everyone can be on the same page. But that's a larger problem of having one large continuity with a bunch of creators who have different ideas, and I can understand why they don't want to be bound by what another writer is doing. Especially when it seems no two of them view one character the same way.

I typically try not to worry about continuity too much when it comes to DC and Marvel, especially when they're constantly rebooting, but it isn't always easy. Especially when they hype up how important the widespread events are, and then do such a piss poor job of managing the fallout.

[Vonter Voman]

Weird. It seems the Underworld IS also known as the Phantom Zone, not the Phantom Zone being part of Underworld.



Note that Morrison differentiate Hades from the Realm of Pluto (Roman version of Hades). They are separate pantheons indeed.

[Vonter Voman]

I was thinking... If Diana is now the God of War, does that make possible for her see the Multiverse from outside? I mean, it's not easy to travel in the Multiverse even for the New Gods, apparently, but she could be aware of it, like Thunderer in Multiversity #1.

It's probably not something that Azzarello will develop, maybe he didn't even think about that, but if DC is gonna keep her God of War status quo and Multiversity is now canon on the New 52, then she must be able to be "outside" of Multiverse like any god.

[SiegePerilous02]

Nubia/the Wonder Woman of Earth-23 seemed to be aware of higher realms such as these in Multiversity #1. Diana's been to Olympus, so I wouldn't be surprised if she learned about the Multiverse from the outside, if she hasn't already.

Also, if the Gods can travel to the various Earths, does that mean Zeus has been seducing several different Hippolytas to birth several different Dianas? You'd think Hera would have caught on long before Earth Prime Diana showed up, though I guess Juno is the one who has to be concerned with Earth-2 Diana.

[Vonter Voman]

The Earths aren't all alike. It seems close Earths like 7 and 8, 0 and 2 have more similarities between them, but they are also different. I think Diana from Earth 2 is not the daughter of Zeus, nor Jupiter. And it's even more unlikely to other more "distant" Earths.