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  1. #1
    Mighty Member Stigmazilla's Avatar
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    Default Goku vs the seven deadly sins

    Which era Goku is the strongest this team could beat?

    Round 2 same deal with Yamcha

  2. #2
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Hmmm...

    The trick is that the Sins do have some options that are guaranteed fight enders regardless of power level (Gowther, King's Petrification, Perfect Cube up to a certain point, King's Disaster status creep thing that he always seems to forget that he has) so we need to get Goku to the point where he can blitz blast and obliterate those options before they happen.

    Another problem is that Full Counter is an excellent answer for a large scale blast and Meliodas is very quick.

    Gut feeling? I'd pitch it somewhere in the Frieza Saga maybe? I'll stress that certain members of the Sins retain the ability to physically mess with Goku beyond that point in the series (The One and Raid Commander Meliodas for example) but his speed and beam potential get very difficult to manage.

    Yamcha on the other hand. Does Yamcha have any actual feats that could suggest he's a credible threat to the Sins?

  3. #3
    Slime Time The Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Hmmm...

    The trick is that the Sins do have some options that are guaranteed fight enders regardless of power level (Gowther, King's Petrification, Perfect Cube up to a certain point, King's Disaster status creep thing that he always seems to forget that he has) so we need to get Goku to the point where he can blitz blast and obliterate those options before they happen.

    Another problem is that Full Counter is an excellent answer for a large scale blast and Meliodas is very quick.

    Gut feeling? I'd pitch it somewhere in the Frieza Saga maybe? I'll stress that certain members of the Sins retain the ability to physically mess with Goku beyond that point in the series (The One and Raid Commander Meliodas for example) but his speed and beam potential get very difficult to manage.

    Yamcha on the other hand. Does Yamcha have any actual feats that could suggest he's a credible threat to the Sins?
    Unless Dragon Ball-era Yamcha can do it, then no. Because all he does in Z (that I remember) is fight a Saibaman and get blown up by it's desperation suicide attack, impaled by Android 20's arm, and getting beaten by a Cell Jr.
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  4. #4
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    That he was able to do damage to a saibaman at all implies that he's at least above beginning-of-DBZ Goku and Piccolo, but that's not really saying a lot in the larger scope.
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  5. #5
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    That he was able to do damage to a saibaman at all implies that he's at least above beginning-of-DBZ Goku and Piccolo, but that's not really saying a lot in the larger scope.
    Jeez, that just doesn't track for me.

    Yamcha had become essentially meaningless by the end of DB, outclassed by pretty much everyone else in terms of feats and narrative presentation, and then he's suddenly supposedly stronger than Goku was at his time of death.

    Nerp. Nope. I don't like it.

  6. #6
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    Well everyone got a huge upgrade in that arc, and the whole scale of everything took a huge leap from Goku having been pretty much the ultimate fighter after the 23rd Budokai to having a guy show up and casually demonstrate that his strength was effectively nothing. And everyone had presumably done at least SOME offscreen training in the 4-5 years leading up to it (though probably not much in Yamcha's case). Nevertheless, it's the last usable feat I can really think of for Yamcha. Considering that he travelled Snake Way and did at least SOME training with King Kai, he's probably stronger still, but we don't have any feats for that to the best of my knowledge. He made it up Snake Way faster than Goku did though, which further supports him begins stronger than beginning-of-Z Goku.

    But yeah, I can understand it feeling awkward. I think it's pretty much the same feeling Super elicits with stuff like Master Roshi suddenly being relevant again.
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  7. #7
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    Well everyone got a huge upgrade in that arc, and the whole scale of everything took a huge leap from Goku having been pretty much the ultimate fighter after the 23rd Budokai to having a guy show up and casually demonstrate that his strength was effectively nothing. And everyone had presumably done at least SOME offscreen training in the 4-5 years leading up to it (though probably not much in Yamcha's case). Nevertheless, it's the last usable feat I can really think of for Yamcha. Considering that he travelled Snake Way and did at least SOME training with King Kai, he's probably stronger still, but we don't have any feats for that to the best of my knowledge. He made it up Snake Way faster than Goku did though, which further supports him begins stronger than beginning-of-Z Goku.

    But yeah, I can understand it feeling awkward. I think it's pretty much the same feeling Super elicits with stuff like Master Roshi suddenly being relevant again.
    Yeah, it just... urgh, DBZ in many ways is just dumb.

    This is why I'll never really be a Dragonball Stan.

    Anyhow, if the highest we can pitch him is "ambiguously above Sayain Saga era Goku," I think the Sins can take Yamcha.

  8. #8
    Slime Time The Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    Well everyone got a huge upgrade in that arc, and the whole scale of everything took a huge leap from Goku having been pretty much the ultimate fighter after the 23rd Budokai to having a guy show up and casually demonstrate that his strength was effectively nothing. And everyone had presumably done at least SOME offscreen training in the 4-5 years leading up to it (though probably not much in Yamcha's case). Nevertheless, it's the last usable feat I can really think of for Yamcha. Considering that he travelled Snake Way and did at least SOME training with King Kai, he's probably stronger still, but we don't have any feats for that to the best of my knowledge. He made it up Snake Way faster than Goku did though, which further supports him begins stronger than beginning-of-Z Goku.

    But yeah, I can understand it feeling awkward. I think it's pretty much the same feeling Super elicits with stuff like Master Roshi suddenly being relevant again.
    Did he do the training with King Kai in the manga, or was that only in the anime?
    Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence.
    - C.S. Lewis

  9. #9
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dog View Post
    Did he do the training with King Kai in the manga, or was that only in the anime?
    He did, but in the comics it's all offscreen. IIRC all we really know is that he made it there.
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  10. #10
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    He did, but in the comics it's all offscreen. IIRC all we really know is that he made it there.
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  11. #11
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy1 View Post
    King Kai: I don't have to tell you everything! In fact, I don't have to tell you anything!

    Tien: And that just about sums up our time spent here.

    This - exactly this.
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  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    Yamcha should still have been training fervently up until we see him again in the Saiyajin Saga, since this was before he more or less retired from trying to keep up with Goku and still tended to abandon Bulma for years on end to train for Budokais. He was also acknowledged as a genius fighter whose potential Kami-sama was praising up and down throughout their fight (read: Kami curbstomping him, but still a waaaaaaay better performance than Piccolo-Daimaou Era Goku's initial attempt to kill Kami went, though Kami was probably still holding back a lot in both scenarios), and he was already a least in the same ballpark as Goku was during the fight against Piccolo Daimaou by then (going by how he seemed to be able to keep track of Goku and Tenshinhan when the latter was restricting himself to the store level Goku had during that point), so being able to get Radditz+ after undergoing the training that Goku did while stronger than Goku was when he started said training, only with multiple sparring partners to train alongside isn't particularly weird.

    And Yamcha pretty decisively defeated his Saibaman (while explicitly advocating that they draw out the fights as long as they can to give Goku the time to reach Earth), he just got caught off guard by the suicide attack from a being at least in the same ballpark as himself.

    Honestly, the How Kuririn Got His Groove Back Arc in Dragonball Super would have made a lot more sense if it was for Yamcha rather than Kuririn, and then Yamcha could have been swapped in for Roshi, who he had long since surpassed.
    Last edited by The Drunkard Kid; 02-18-2019 at 10:54 PM.

  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    How fast are the Seven Deadly Sins, anyway? They have some degree of superspeed, but I can't remember exactly how much, and currently their stats seem to be arbitrarily fluctuating all over the place, sometimes without even plot related reasons as far as I can tell (did they explain why Escanor can't casually one-shot Meliodas' little brother any more?).

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    How fast are the Seven Deadly Sins, anyway? They have some degree of superspeed, but I can't remember exactly how much, and currently their stats seem to be arbitrarily fluctuating all over the place, sometimes without even plot related reasons as far as I can tell (did they explain why Escanor can't casually one-shot Meliodas' little brother any more?).
    He had no problem basically one shoting Zeldoris by poking with one finger. The problem was getting through Zeldoris' uber defence power, which was wrecking everybody else.

    Unfortunately, as soon as the poke happened Cusack called upon a magical night which deactivated Escanor's muscle form.

  15. #15
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    How fast are the Seven Deadly Sins, anyway? They have some degree of superspeed, but I can't remember exactly how much, and currently their stats seem to be arbitrarily fluctuating all over the place, sometimes without even plot related reasons as far as I can tell (did they explain why Escanor can't casually one-shot Meliodas' little brother any more?).
    Speed varies a fair bit between characters to be honest.

    Meliodas and Ban have solid speed feats that would pitch them somewhere in the multimach given how they are portrayed in relation to Galand.

    Gowther has some speed but he's noted as being slower than Escanor.

    Escanor can fight evenly with Raid Commander Meliodas without being utterly blitzed.

    King doesn't really have speed, it's more his ability to manipulate his weapon and so on and current Chastifol is zooming across significant portions of the country in seconds.

    Merlin... has no real speed feats.

    Diane, likewise doesn't have anything concrete.

    Generally, by virtue of power scaling and stuff the fastest of them should be in the double to low triple multimach maybe. Speed is kinda hard to figure out because it doesn't come up that much and it's generally ambiguous when it does.

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