Was Rebirth just geared to get rid of New52 Wonder Woman and Superman?

[Lokimaru]

Cause I'm not seeing any other major changes to the existing characters. If that the case then that's the second or third time they've had major revisions whilst other characters stayed relatively the same so I ask: Why always them? Superman was killed a d merged with a doppelganger, Diana's whole history was made a lie. Again. Why the cycles of change and reversion?

[Miles To Go]

N52 Superman was the doppelganer

[Frontier]

It definitely was not just to reboot Superman and Wonder Woman.

Just look at how much Post-Crisis elements are playing a huge factor in Joshua Williamson's Flash run.

[Yoda]

There were other changes, but those were the most significant. Wally West came back. Flash and Iris, Green Arrow and Black Canary, they brought the Titans back to a closer fit to pre-Flashpoint. Martian Manhunter was brought back into the fold eventually. Getting Superman and Wonder Woman back to more a semblance of Pre-Flashpoint just took more work than the others because they were the furest afield to start with. They had taken both those characters so far from their norms that they had to eventually reset them. There's no way a Clark Kent-less Superman was going to stick around for very long. He had an expiration date on him from day 1 of Truth.

Arguably, Wonder Woman's changes were more to get her into a closer fit with the movie version. Hence Steve Trevor's return as a love interest, the movie-esqe costume, and keeping the banishment from Themiscarya and Zeus origin.

There was an entire thread on the general DC board listing all the Pre-Flashpoint continuity that had come back up. So while Superman was the most visible, it definitely wasn't the only one.

As for why, who knows. Didio and Lee had commented that they feel the DCU works as a whole when books like Superman are working well. That requires some semblance of stability, Batman rarely goes too far off model regardless of the stories they tell. And stability was not an adjective that you'd use to describe any facet of the New 52, particularly the Superman line. So I think you're probably right that a desire to stabilize the character and bring it back to something that was more recognizable as "Superman" was likely one of, but definitely not the only, the driving forces of Rebirth.

[superduperman]

Well, GA and BC hooked back up again so maybe that wasn't the only reason. But, yeah, I'm willing to entertain the idea that it was certainly a driving factor. People wanted the stuff the New 52 removed. And one of those things was the super-marriage. If you look at the way pre-Flashpoint Superman was made the "official" version again, it really did look kind of like they were playing it by ear. I seem to remember one of the solicitations for the meeting between the two Supermen was changed at the last minute and there accusations of management forcing the books to change direction at that time. My personal theory is that someone up top took control away from Didio around 2014-15 and made plans to sort of restore things back to the way they were. When did the L&C mini come out? 2015? Same time as Truth. Something I'm fairly convinced was designed to turn fans away from the New 52 Superman. The old Superman comes back at the exact same time the new one loses his powers? Yeah, that's not a coincidence. It really did seem that after Convergence, they deliberately went in a different direction.

[Jackalope89]

There were other changes, but those were the most significant. Wally West came back. Flash and Iris, Green Arrow and Black Canary, they brought the Titans back to a closer fit to pre-Flashpoint. Martian Manhunter was brought back into the fold eventually. Getting Superman and Wonder Woman back to more a semblance of Pre-Flashpoint just took more work than the others because they were the furest afield to start with. They had taken both those characters so far from their norms that they had to eventually reset them. There's no way a Clark Kent-less Superman was going to stick around for very long. He had an expiration date on him from day 1 of Truth.

Arguably, Wonder Woman's changes were more to get her into a closer fit with the movie version. Hence Steve Trevor's return as a love interest, the movie-esqe costume, and keeping the banishment from Themiscarya and Zeus origin.

There was an entire thread on the general DC board listing all the Pre-Flashpoint continuity that had come back up. So while Superman was the most visible, it definitely wasn't the only one.

As for why, who knows. Didio and Lee had commented that they feel the DCU works as a whole when books like Superman are working well. That requires some semblance of stability, Batman rarely goes too far off model regardless of the stories they tell. And stability was not an adjective that you'd use to describe any facet of the New 52, particularly the Superman line. So I think you're probably right that a desire to stabilize the character and bring it back to something that was more recognizable as "Superman" was likely one of, but definitely not the only, the driving forces of Rebirth.

Tim Drake got his pre-Flashpoint origin back. The real Lobo came back (was even a member of the JLA). No more sex pirate Amazons. OG Wally came back. The original Teen Titans did exist. And with Superman Reborn, Clark and Lois were made canon again, with Diana and Bruce guarding Lois as she gave birth to Jon.

And that's just off the top of my head.

[hellacre]

I think it was for movie synergy which does not really work. Which never has worked. Movies never affect comic sales so not sure why DC feels the need to follow. I read Jim Lee saying something recently like that and a need to get back to creative content. But that should have been known. These kinds of abrupt changes only creates more convoluted mess imo. I am sure many people still don't even know what counts or does not with these two characters in Rebirth or what figures in characters' past or origins. The current versions are Frankenstein versions that never truly were built but tried to cherry pick to justify a status quo. They are not at all like preflashpoint or even the new 52, which were better fleshed out because they started from the ground up and were at least trying to build their history in a linear fashion.

[Sacred Knight]

The whole movement? Nah. Superman in particular though the aim was to get rid of the New 52 one and replace him entirely. Showed in the completely different model they used to "Rebirth" Superman as opposed to everything else. SM/WW was a casualty of that by extension.

3 years later we're pretty much at a point where much everyone has joined Superman in being their pre-FP selves. Its been gradual but its almost to completion. But the completely different utilization for how Superman got there remains.

[DochaDocha]

I don't think so, but I believe it to be the main reason.

I'll give Rebirth some credit in the sense that it not only restored Old 52 Superman, but also progressed the character forward. It's just to bad for me that I'm not interested in a main-line Superman as a dad, and it reinserted the prior continuity's Superman in such a stupid way. That Superman deserved a far better ending, but it felt like they solved one problem by creating a new one. Plus the way they try to ignore that Superman/WW happened seems kind of ridiculous, but whatever. Really, it's comic business as usual, I guess.

[Osiris-Rex]

Cause I'm not seeing any other major changes to the existing characters. If that the case then that's the second or third time they've had major revisions whilst other characters stayed relatively the same so I ask: Why always them? Superman was killed a d merged with a doppelganger, Diana's whole history was made a lie. Again. Why the cycles of change and reversion?

Rebirth Supergirl is the same Supergirl as the New 52 Supergirl, other than changing her costume and calming her down some.

[_Beautiful_Temptress_]

The reason why DC erased smww is because this "couple" became the most disastrous. DC is very actively promoted and added them to almost all comics. And even drama and trick with break up Clark and Diana failed to attract attention. Their comic also had no success and sold worse, than all the other comics with and about Superman.

Justice League Action is one of the worst animated series. As most users wrote, the only thing that was good in this animated series is humor, everything else is terrible. Even if it were the second season, then it would show the relationship Superman and Lois Lane. It said the producer of this cartoon.

The success of DOS and ROTS only proved that people are not interested in the couple that DC imposed 5 years. DOS has a box office dispute more than all the cartoons featuring New 52 Superman. JL War in which Clark's relationship with Diana was not shown had a cash dispute more than the cartoons in which the relationship was shown.

And these" relationships " are not the only ones that have ceased to exist in Rebirth.

[DochaDocha]

Justice League Action is one of the worst animated series. As most users wrote, the only thing that was good in this animated series is humor, everything else is terrible. Even if it were the second season, then it would show the relationship Superman and Lois Lane. It said the producer of this cartoon.

Let's ignore the two (or however many) references to their relationship for a moment. JLA was a 10-minute kid's show, so it was never going to be very narrative- or drama-heavy. But as soon as you put it in that context, I think their Superman is pretty good. The two-minute short about knowing thine enemy pretty much captures Superman's awesomeness that narrative-driven shows like JLU and even Young Justice were largely unwilling to do. The episode when he beats Steppenwolf, and ends up with the higher enemy defeat tally than Barda or Batman without powers put a smile on my face that just hasn't happened often in TV animation. I don't think their Superman was perfect, but their take on Supes seemed far less apologetic than stuff that Alan Burnett, Bruce Timm, Dwayne McDuffie (RIP) had put out.

Considering that my other favorite Supes stories from the time seemed to come from the Lego games, I wonder if humor is just a better contextual setting for Superman than many Superman writers realize.

EDIT: Sorry for going off topic a bit. I just really liked JLA's Supes, in general, because whereas some of the names I listed above actually went out of their way to explain that they wrote Supes from an angle of showing him to be lesser than whatever perceived notion they think people have of Superman, I feel like JLA rolled with the punches and tried to give us the Supes they thought people expected: top notch, second to none. Also, while Supes wasn't really the star of JLA, I felt like it was just easier to make an uncompromised version of Superman, for many writers, by not making him "the guy." Some of my favorite takes on Supes in JLU, for instance, was when he was off-screen or not prominently featured.

[Sacred Knight]

The reason why DC erased smww is because this "couple" became the most disastrous. DC is very actively promoted and added them to almost all comics. And even drama and trick with break up Clark and Diana failed to attract attention. Their comic also had no success and sold worse, than all the other comics with and about Superman.

Justice League Action is one of the worst animated series. As most users wrote, the only thing that was good in this animated series is humor, everything else is terrible. Even if it were the second season, then it would show the relationship Superman and Lois Lane. It said the producer of this cartoon.

The success of DOS and ROTS only proved that people are not interested in the couple that DC imposed 5 years. DOS has a box office dispute more than all the cartoons featuring New 52 Superman. JL War in which Clark's relationship with Diana was not shown had a cash dispute more than the cartoons in which the relationship was shown.

And these" relationships " are not the only ones that have ceased to exist in Rebirth.

Virtually none of these statements are true. 3 years after its done, the hyperbole and outright falsehoods are still going strong. It did attract attention, and the comic did sell well.

[_Beautiful_Temptress_]

Virtually none of these statements are true. 3 years after its done, the hyperbole and outright falsehoods are still going strong. It did attract attention, and the comic did sell well.

These statements are true. DC very actively advertised smww. Even a comic about this couple was selling worse, than all the other comics with and about Clark. Sales results will only confirm it. That DC added them to almost all comics is a fact. Even the comic sellers said that almost no one buys a superwonder comic. the comics were low. And there was a trick that they broke up, but that didn't help either. That DOS and ROTS are the most successful is also fact. Box office and rating is higher,than all cartoons with New 52 Superman. JL Action most people called the worst animated series. And the producer himself said that if there will be a second season then there will be a Superman and Lois Lane relationship. The Internet will confirm all this.

[DochaDocha]

I thought the book sold ok under Soule. Then Tomasi took over, and, well, the book kinda sucked. Even if you thought Soule's run wasn't that good, I mean, Tomasi's run was remarkably worse.

The Death of Superman-related movies all sold well (I think Superman: Doomsday still moved the most units), but let's also not forget that Superman movies got shelved for five years largely because Superman vs. the Elite and Superman: Unbound absolutely tanked. Of course, I don't think the story for Elite was all that bad; it got sabotaged by looking and sounding like the most cheaply-made DTV's, and by a long shot (I disliked Unbound, FWIW, but I can't pinpoint any one reason why it sold so badly).

I think DoS has a lot of appeal to casuals. I mean, it's not like I'd say that Superman: Doomsday is somehow a better story than All-Star Superman, but if you went straight by numbers you'd think the battle against Doomsday was somehow the best Superman story ever told because nothing can match its sales.