Was Rebirth just geared to get rid of New52 Wonder Woman and Superman?

[Lokimaru]

Cause I'm not seeing any other major changes to the existing characters. If that the case then that's the second or third time they've had major revisions whilst other characters stayed relatively the same so I ask: Why always them? Superman was killed a d merged with a doppelganger, Diana's whole history was made a lie. Again. Why the cycles of change and reversion?

[Miles To Go]

N52 Superman was the doppelganer

[Frontier]

It definitely was not just to reboot Superman and Wonder Woman.

Just look at how much Post-Crisis elements are playing a huge factor in Joshua Williamson's Flash run.

[Yoda]

There were other changes, but those were the most significant. Wally West came back. Flash and Iris, Green Arrow and Black Canary, they brought the Titans back to a closer fit to pre-Flashpoint. Martian Manhunter was brought back into the fold eventually. Getting Superman and Wonder Woman back to more a semblance of Pre-Flashpoint just took more work than the others because they were the furest afield to start with. They had taken both those characters so far from their norms that they had to eventually reset them. There's no way a Clark Kent-less Superman was going to stick around for very long. He had an expiration date on him from day 1 of Truth.

Arguably, Wonder Woman's changes were more to get her into a closer fit with the movie version. Hence Steve Trevor's return as a love interest, the movie-esqe costume, and keeping the banishment from Themiscarya and Zeus origin.

There was an entire thread on the general DC board listing all the Pre-Flashpoint continuity that had come back up. So while Superman was the most visible, it definitely wasn't the only one.

As for why, who knows. Didio and Lee had commented that they feel the DCU works as a whole when books like Superman are working well. That requires some semblance of stability, Batman rarely goes too far off model regardless of the stories they tell. And stability was not an adjective that you'd use to describe any facet of the New 52, particularly the Superman line. So I think you're probably right that a desire to stabilize the character and bring it back to something that was more recognizable as "Superman" was likely one of, but definitely not the only, the driving forces of Rebirth.

[superduperman]

Well, GA and BC hooked back up again so maybe that wasn't the only reason. But, yeah, I'm willing to entertain the idea that it was certainly a driving factor. People wanted the stuff the New 52 removed. And one of those things was the super-marriage. If you look at the way pre-Flashpoint Superman was made the "official" version again, it really did look kind of like they were playing it by ear. I seem to remember one of the solicitations for the meeting between the two Supermen was changed at the last minute and there accusations of management forcing the books to change direction at that time. My personal theory is that someone up top took control away from Didio around 2014-15 and made plans to sort of restore things back to the way they were. When did the L&C mini come out? 2015? Same time as Truth. Something I'm fairly convinced was designed to turn fans away from the New 52 Superman. The old Superman comes back at the exact same time the new one loses his powers? Yeah, that's not a coincidence. It really did seem that after Convergence, they deliberately went in a different direction.

[Jackalope89]

There were other changes, but those were the most significant. Wally West came back. Flash and Iris, Green Arrow and Black Canary, they brought the Titans back to a closer fit to pre-Flashpoint. Martian Manhunter was brought back into the fold eventually. Getting Superman and Wonder Woman back to more a semblance of Pre-Flashpoint just took more work than the others because they were the furest afield to start with. They had taken both those characters so far from their norms that they had to eventually reset them. There's no way a Clark Kent-less Superman was going to stick around for very long. He had an expiration date on him from day 1 of Truth.

Arguably, Wonder Woman's changes were more to get her into a closer fit with the movie version. Hence Steve Trevor's return as a love interest, the movie-esqe costume, and keeping the banishment from Themiscarya and Zeus origin.

There was an entire thread on the general DC board listing all the Pre-Flashpoint continuity that had come back up. So while Superman was the most visible, it definitely wasn't the only one.

As for why, who knows. Didio and Lee had commented that they feel the DCU works as a whole when books like Superman are working well. That requires some semblance of stability, Batman rarely goes too far off model regardless of the stories they tell. And stability was not an adjective that you'd use to describe any facet of the New 52, particularly the Superman line. So I think you're probably right that a desire to stabilize the character and bring it back to something that was more recognizable as "Superman" was likely one of, but definitely not the only, the driving forces of Rebirth.

Tim Drake got his pre-Flashpoint origin back. The real Lobo came back (was even a member of the JLA). No more sex pirate Amazons. OG Wally came back. The original Teen Titans did exist. And with Superman Reborn, Clark and Lois were made canon again, with Diana and Bruce guarding Lois as she gave birth to Jon.

And that's just off the top of my head.

[hellacre]

I think it was for movie synergy which does not really work. Which never has worked. Movies never affect comic sales so not sure why DC feels the need to follow. I read Jim Lee saying something recently like that and a need to get back to creative content. But that should have been known. These kinds of abrupt changes only creates more convoluted mess imo. I am sure many people still don't even know what counts or does not with these two characters in Rebirth or what figures in characters' past or origins. The current versions are Frankenstein versions that never truly were built but tried to cherry pick to justify a status quo. They are not at all like preflashpoint or even the new 52, which were better fleshed out because they started from the ground up and were at least trying to build their history in a linear fashion.

[Sacred Knight]

The whole movement? Nah. Superman in particular though the aim was to get rid of the New 52 one and replace him entirely. Showed in the completely different model they used to "Rebirth" Superman as opposed to everything else. SM/WW was a casualty of that by extension.

3 years later we're pretty much at a point where much everyone has joined Superman in being their pre-FP selves. Its been gradual but its almost to completion. But the completely different utilization for how Superman got there remains.

[DochaDocha]

I don't think so, but I believe it to be the main reason.

I'll give Rebirth some credit in the sense that it not only restored Old 52 Superman, but also progressed the character forward. It's just to bad for me that I'm not interested in a main-line Superman as a dad, and it reinserted the prior continuity's Superman in such a stupid way. That Superman deserved a far better ending, but it felt like they solved one problem by creating a new one. Plus the way they try to ignore that Superman/WW happened seems kind of ridiculous, but whatever. Really, it's comic business as usual, I guess.

[Armor of God]

Well, one can say the same about New 52 and Superman/Lois.

[DochaDocha]

Well, one can say the same about New 52 and Superman/Lois.

I thought New 52 Superman was mostly a move to avoid the possible fallout of losing the Toberoff suit. So I guess in a sense dissolving their relationship was mostly just in case they'd lose ownership of the character.

Still, I figured as absurd as much of "Flashpoint" was, it at least acknowledged that the stuff that happened before it actually, well, happened. To put it in other words, I felt New 52 was business, but Rebirth was personal.

[Yoda]

Still, I figured as absurd as much of "Flashpoint" was, it at least acknowledged that the stuff that happened before it actually, well, happened. To put it in other words, I felt New 52 was business, but Rebirth was personal.

It felt pretty personal at the time. You had plenty of editors and creators crapping on Lois and the marriage both in books and outside of them back at the beginning of the New 52 all the way through Truth. From Superman #1’s ridiculous ending, her role in the books being diminished and misused, Dan Didio’s numerous statements that amounted to the marriage and relationship being the reason Superman was in trouble- essentially “that thing you liked is why Superman sucked” - to that one editor who promised he’d never allow any sort of relationship between Lois and Clark at all, never mind marriage. DC hasn’t gone out of their way to crap on the SM/WW relationship or their fans beyond ignoring it and having Wonder Woman say it was easy.

Rebirth as a whole had some negative things to say about the direction of the New 52 that seemed a little heavy handed, without question. But the SM/WW thing wasn’t handled all that badly.

[Miles To Go]

DC hasn’t gone out of their way to crap on the SM/WW relationship or their fans beyond ignoring it and having Wonder Woman say it was easy.

Diana throwing her whole relationship under the bus like that was definitely enough to anger the fans. Also the close friendship they had during pre-flashpoint is practically non-existent in the Rebirth canon. They're more or less just acquaintances with the mere teensiest hint of a friendship that's never really explored all that much, at least in comparison to Bruce and Clark. Diana was also almost turned into a home-wrecker on Batman's side of things by Tom King.

And of course there's the cancellation of JL Action (a very pro-Clark/Diana cartoon), and DC breaking Clark and Diana off-screen in the animated movies, with Diana admitting she could'nt deal with Clark's personal life in Death, and then telling Lois she always came first in Clark's heart during Reign

I'm no fan of the relationship or it's fanbase, but they've definitely been short-changed over the last few years. You don't have to make it sting the way they did Clois 'shippers to make those fans hurt.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't think so, but I believe it to be the main reason.

I'll give Rebirth some credit in the sense that it not only restored Old 52 Superman, but also progressed the character forward. It's just to bad for me that I'm not interested in a main-line Superman as a dad, and it reinserted the prior continuity's Superman in such a stupid way. That Superman deserved a far better ending, but it felt like they solved one problem by creating a new one. Plus the way they try to ignore that Superman/WW happened seems kind of ridiculous, but whatever. Really, it's comic business as usual, I guess.

Agreed. I'm not fan of the SM/WW relationship, but they went about getting rid of it in the dumbest way possible, and there really was no need to get rid of the foundation run of New 52 Superman and his characterization just so he could get back with Lois.

I think simply breaking up Clark and Diana and having them remain close friends, and having a time skip with him being married to a pregnant Lois would have sufficed. I don't necessarily mind Clark being a dad in canon, but breezing by the early stages of their parenthood just to awkwardly insert a 10 year old into continuity and provide Damian a playmate was headache inducing.

[superduperman]

I thought New 52 Superman was mostly a move to avoid the possible fallout of losing the Toberoff suit. So I guess in a sense dissolving their relationship was mostly just in case they'd lose ownership of the character.

Still, I figured as absurd as much of "Flashpoint" was, it at least acknowledged that the stuff that happened before it actually, well, happened. To put it in other words, I felt New 52 was business, but Rebirth was personal.

I don't remember who but someone on these very message boards went to a comic convention not long after Rebirth happened and said the people at the DC booth were more or less gloating about how the "real" Superman was back. I think there were a lot of people at DC who hated New 52 and couldn't wait to get things back to the way they were. Hence why the transition between the two versions of Superman were so sloppy. New 52 Supes was thrown under the bus, no question. There was no "merger". No real elements of New 52 Superman still remain except maybe the death of his parents and by the time Doomsday Clock is done they may even undo that. I've stopped reading mainstream books both because I liked New 52 and hated the way he was treated but also because I just don't know what his history is anymore.