Was Rebirth just geared to get rid of New52 Wonder Woman and Superman?

[SiegePerilous02]

Everything I hate about All-Star.

It's supposed to be deep and touching, it comes off as Superman being a preachy idiot who doesn't even try to understand why this girl is feeling so bad and simply spout platitudes. And somehow it works because he's Superman ?

But more on the point of the topic : Rebirth wasn't geared to just erase the News 52 versions of those characters. But it required it and has spent a lot of time early one shitting on the last five years before Rebirth.

What exactly is he preaching here? He heard a person in need and went to help her, reminding her that there are people in her life who also care. Like her therapist, who is much more qualified to help her on a more regular basis than a kind stranger. Like what, do you want Superman to monitor her mental health and give her anti-depressants? He's not a doctor.

He's a larger than life figure more so in-universe. He deals with cosmic level threats. Reagan is seeing that despite all that, he takes the time to be there for her. She (and everyone) matters. The Superman books need more scenes like this, not less.

[Celgress]

Creators, much like fans, are bound to play favorites. They are only human, after all. They can take their favorite version of a character and prop them up or propel them forward....

Too true, see Spider-Man's OMD for one of the most hamfisted, critically condemned examples of such behavior.

[Vordan]

I thought the book sold ok under Soule. Then Tomasi took over, and, well, the book kinda sucked. Even if you thought Soule's run wasn't that good, I mean, Tomasi's run was remarkably worse.

The Death of Superman-related movies all sold well (I think Superman: Doomsday still moved the most units), but let's also not forget that Superman movies got shelved for five years largely because Superman vs. the Elite and Superman: Unbound absolutely tanked. Of course, I don't think the story for Elite was all that bad; it got sabotaged by looking and sounding like the most cheaply-made DTV's, and by a long shot (I disliked Unbound, FWIW, but I can't pinpoint any one reason why it sold so badly).

I think DoS has a lot of appeal to casuals. I mean, it's not like I'd say that Superman: Doomsday is somehow a better story than All-Star Superman, but if you went straight by numbers you'd think the battle against Doomsday was somehow the best Superman story ever told because nothing can match its sales.

Part of it is because writers refuse to write stories about Supes other villains. So the only two villains who have achieved victories against Supes are Lex and Doomsday. If someone were to write a story about Metallo messing Supes up and then they adapted that I think people would enjoy that.

[Celgress]

Part of it is because writers refuse to write stories about Supes other villains. So the only two villains who have achieved victories against Supes are Lex and Doomsday. If someone were to write a story about Metallo messing Supes up and then they adapted that I think people would enjoy that.

I agree with you 100%.

[manwhohaseverything]

Everything I hate about All-Star.

It's supposed to be deep and touching, it comes off as Superman being a preachy idiot who doesn't even try to understand why this girl is feeling so bad and simply spout platitudes. And somehow it works because he's Superman ?

But more on the point of the topic : Rebirth wasn't geared to just erase the News 52 versions of those characters. But it required it and has spent a lot of time early one shitting on the last five years before Rebirth.

Why do you have a problem with "the father" archetype? You seem irritated by something that isn't meant to be irritating. It works because it's short and sweet. Get's the point across. Have watched "winnie the pooh"?

[Korath]

Why do you have a problem with "the father" archetype? You seem irritated by something that isn't meant to be irritating. It works because it's short and sweet. Get's the point across. Have watched "winnie the pooh"?

Why would I watch Winnie ? I never liked it, even as a kid.

But I dislike the father figure, because it is the perfect picture of the Reaction, the paternalist asshole who knows better and spout platitudes without trying to actually make the world better.

What's so great seeing Superman spout that peoples care about that girl ? What does it change in her life ? Nothing ! Plenty of peoples, starting with her therapist, must have told her that. But somehow, him being Superman, this God among us gives him more weight simply because of it. That's not something I support, and All-Star is filled to the brim with that idea, that Superman hoard his secrets, doesn't try to uplift humanity and simply continue saving it because "he knows better".

That's why I find it laughable that people say All-Star is the natural end of Morrison's Action Comics run, when the latter has an Superman getting his hand dirty, always willing to act and topple the corrupt systems which keep people down.

[manwhohaseverything]

Why would I watch Winnie ? I never liked it, even as a kid.

But I dislike the father figure, because it is the perfect picture of the Reaction, the paternalist asshole who knows better and spout platitudes without trying to actually make the world better.

What's so great seeing Superman spout that peoples care about that girl ? What does it change in her life ? Nothing ! Plenty of peoples, starting with her therapist, must have told her that. But somehow, him being Superman, this God among us gives him more weight simply because of it. That's not something I support, and All-Star is filled to the brim with that idea, that Superman hoard his secrets, doesn't try to uplift humanity and simply continue saving it because "he knows better".

That's why I find it laughable that people say All-Star is the natural end of Morrison's Action Comics run, when the latter has an Superman getting his hand dirty, always willing to act and topple the corrupt systems which keep people down.

Just so you know toppling something is easy. It never is pretty. And toppling something without something stable to replace is stupid. Superman even in the golden age was no revolutionary. He fought for the little guy and against the corrupt. He was (as far as i have read) not trying to topple any system. He had his own praxis(which creators gave him) , if you will. Making the world a better place is hard.try to alter a system without some kind of real thought to it can be disastrous.not for just but the little people as well. Superman decided to take the middle path. Which is good since, He didn't damage anyone atleast.

It is called a natural end to morrison golden age superman inspiration because all star superman is inspired from silver age. As you know Golden age transitioned to silver age. Aesthetic, tone.. Etc in this story are heavily silverage like.

Superman can't change or save anyone's life unless they themselves want to.that applies to the girl too. He stopped her from jumping. Told her therapist was really held up. Seeing her in emotional distress hugged her. Might be the only thing he knew to calm her. If the girl or anyone wants to get better. Do well and live a full filling life. It is on her to do that and take steps towards it. Clark just told her he and the people that loved her will be there for her, if she needs help and they believe in her. It worked she got better not because of superman or anyone else. But because her own strength. superman did nothing like you said, but everything he wished for her came to be. It is superman version of "wu wei".to quote lao tzu "When nothing is done, nothing is left undone".

Tell me, what has Clark done asshole like? . He was perfectly polite and nice. He saying what he believes. He believes, from the bottom of the heart that she is stronger than what she thinks of herself to be. Just like Christopher robin thinks pooh is, since he is leaving him.it doesn’t have to mean anything, but it does make you feel better. Especially, if someone means it. As far as paternalistic goes. I didn't know being fatherly to someone is now seen a paternalistic. What would you call a real paternalistic asshole then?

The weight of the line is not because he is a god. But because he is dieing like a man. He is telling it to himself, as he is to the child. He hugs her like a father would hug a child. Father archetype is important, even if to a lesser degree than the mother archetype.

If you hate the father archetype. How can you read a superman book?Superman, thor.. Etc are driven by it to some extent. Heck!even Batman has undertones of it.

What secret did he horde that humanity should be entitled to? Has humanity or anyone worked for superman to earn anything that he has? His technology is his. He doesn't have to give it to humanity, if he doesn't want to.his fortress was built by him, with his very hand. And from what i know, he has shared everything he knows with people he believes to be good and do good by the world like the scientist dude.

Humanity seems to be in a much better place because of superman in this movie. The only one who was an asshole is Lex. Even he has an arc.
Edit- it is too bad you didn't like winnie the pooh. As a guy who had issues a child winnie the pooh always cheered me up.

[SiegePerilous02]

Why would I watch Winnie ? I never liked it, even as a kid.

But I dislike the father figure, because it is the perfect picture of the Reaction, the paternalist asshole who knows better and spout platitudes without trying to actually make the world better.

What's so great seeing Superman spout that peoples care about that girl ? What does it change in her life ? Nothing ! Plenty of peoples, starting with her therapist, must have told her that. But somehow, him being Superman, this God among us gives him more weight simply because of it. That's not something I support, and All-Star is filled to the brim with that idea, that Superman hoard his secrets, doesn't try to uplift humanity and simply continue saving it because "he knows better".

That's why I find it laughable that people say All-Star is the natural end of Morrison's Action Comics run, when the latter has an Superman getting his hand dirty, always willing to act and topple the corrupt systems which keep people down.

What exactly is Superman doing to indicate that he doesn't care, and what would you have him do when he's not going to be a regular part of her life (and is making no claim to be) and is not qualified to treat her? You're not backing any of this up.

What is he hoarding, and what obligation does he have to give any of the technology to us? He built the Fortress himself and he finds this stuff. Humanity doesn't show a capacity for maturity, segments of it would use it as powerful weapons. But he also reaches out to Leo Quintum to help him resolve the Kandor situation, and recruited the Emergency Squad to help cure cancer.

It is a natural endpoint to Morrison's Action run. It's clearly the same guy at a different maturity level, which is natural since he's become older and wiser as he's become more powerful. Action was even pretty upfront that his more violent edge wasn't sustainable long term and didn't resolve everything, so while he needed to retain the core beliefs, he needed to temper it. He terrorized Glenmorgan in the first issue and it didn't work because Glenmorgan was able to shift the blame away and say he made confessions under duress. Which is very believable from an outsider's perspective.

[HeroVladimir93]

Just so you know toppling something is easy. It never is pretty. And toppling something without something stable to replace is stupid. Superman even in the golden age was no revolutionary. He fought for the little guy and against the corrupt. He was (as far as i have read) not trying to topple any system. He had his own praxis(which creators gave him) , if you will. Making the world a better place is hard.try to alter a system without some kind of real thought to it can be disastrous.not for just but the little people as well. Superman decided to take the middle path. Which is good since, He didn't damage anyone atleast.

It is called a natural end to morrison golden age superman inspiration because all star superman is inspired from silver age. As you know Golden age transitioned to silver age. Aesthetic, tone.. Etc in this story are heavily silverage like.

Superman can't change or save anyone's life unless they themselves want to.that applies to the girl too. He stopped her from jumping. Told her therapist was really held up. Seeing her in emotional distress hugged her. Might be the only thing he knew to calm her. If the girl or anyone wants to get better. Do well and live a full filling life. It is on her to do that and take steps towards it. Clark just told her he and the people that loved her will be there for her, if she needs help and they believe in her. It worked she got better not because of superman or anyone else. But because her own strength. superman did nothing like you said, but everything he wished for her came to be. It is superman version of "wu wei".to quote lao tzu "When nothing is done, nothing is left undone".

Tell me, what has Clark done asshole like? . He was perfectly polite and nice. He saying what he believes. He believes, from the bottom of the heart that she is stronger than what she thinks of herself to be. Just like Christopher robin thinks pooh is, since he is leaving him.it doesn’t have to mean anything, but it does make you feel better. Especially, if someone means it. As far as paternalistic goes. I didn't know being fatherly to someone is now seen a paternalistic. What would you call a real paternalistic asshole then?

The weight of the line is not because he is a god. But because he is dieing like a man. He is telling it to himself, as he is to the child. He hugs her like a father would hug a child. Father archetype is important, even if to a lesser degree than the mother archetype.

If you hate the father archetype. How can you read a superman book?Superman, thor.. Etc are driven by it to some extent. Heck!even Batman has undertones of it.

What secret did he horde that humanity should be entitled to? Has humanity or anyone worked for superman to earn anything that he has? His technology is his. He doesn't have to give it to humanity, if he doesn't want to.his fortress was built by him, with his very hand. And from what i know, he has shared everything he knows with people he believes to be good and do good by the world like the scientist dude.

Humanity seems to be in a much better place because of superman in this movie. The only one who was an asshole is Lex. Even he has an arc.
Edit- it is too bad you didn't like winnie the pooh. As a guy who had issues a child winnie the pooh always cheered me up.

Yes! I agree with this! This is one of the most passionate defenses for Superman I have read in a long time. All-Star Superman is a perfect encapsulation of everything that makes Superman great. Superman was there for that girl in her time of need but he did not overstep his boundaries. He only said a few words of encouragement, the girl's own self-improvement was done on her own free will. As for the whole "hoarding secrets from humanity" thing, that's his legacy from another world. He got it from his family. Whether he wants to give it to someone else, that's Superman's business, plain and simple. The things in the Fortress of Solitude belong to Superman. That's why it's called a Fortress of Solitude. He doesn't have to share it with the rest of the world.

These statements are true. DC very actively advertised smww. Even a comic about this couple was selling worse, than all the other comics with and about Clark. Sales results will only confirm it. That DC added them to almost all comics is a fact. Even the comic sellers said that almost no one buys a superwonder comic. the comics were low. And there was a trick that they broke up, but that didn't help either. That DOS and ROTS are the most successful is also fact. Box office and rating is higher,than all cartoons with New 52 Superman. JL Action most people called the worst animated series. And the producer himself said that if there will be a second season then there will be a Superman and Lois Lane relationship. The Internet will confirm all this.

I admit I did enjoy the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship, but it didn't have the same longevity or emotional pathos as Superman/Lois. If you liked this relationship, that's fine, more power to you, don't let me rain on your parade, but S/WW was part of the New 52, an initiative that ultimately wasn't a financially sound decision for DC. If S/WW was kicked to the curb in favor of Clark/Lois, well, that's because DC made the decision to give people what they want.

[stargazer01]

Would Batman be wrong if he said, "The last time one of your stories inspired anyone was when you were dead"?

let's just say that what Batman says is not the law of God to me.

What exactly is he preaching here? He heard a person in need and went to help her, reminding her that there are people in her life who also care. Like her therapist, who is much more qualified to help her on a more regular basis than a kind stranger. Like what, do you want Superman to monitor her mental health and give her anti-depressants? He's not a doctor.

He's a larger than life figure more so in-universe. He deals with cosmic level threats. Reagan is seeing that despite all that, he takes the time to be there for her. She (and everyone) matters. The Superman books need more scenes like this, not less.

Agreed.