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  1. #16
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    I understand, but it does kind of come off as “Gwen works best as a corpse.” A sentiment I very much disagree with as Peter was already Spider-Man for several years (IRL), and it didn’t change him in magnitude of the way Uncle Ben’s death did. It wasn’t about the character’s growth. It’s that Conway liked MJ better and wanted to get rid of Gwen, so he went with that when May was slated to die (something I also would’ve disagreed with). Killing characters that weren’t created to be killed is dumb IMO. It’s cheap and an easy way to garner shock and impact.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    I understand, but it does kind of come off as “Gwen works best as a corpse.”
    I actually do agree with that too. I am all for Gwen Stacy coming back from the dead. The thing is I want her to come back as a rounded flawed character with edges. I want her to come back as a more complex and darker character. The way to do that is to go back to the stories before her death and pick up on stuff that is interesting and worth doing. I want Gwen to come back and own up and accept her responsibility for backing Sam Bullitt and face consequences for doing so. I want Peter and Gwen to have a fight about her treatment about Aunt May, since in their relationship during the Lee-Romita era they are never shown having fights or tiffs, which is one of the many reasons why that relationship was unbelievable. And Peter was a terrible boyfriend to her, so there are issues she has with Peter that she needs to voice.

    The only reason to bring a character back from the dead is that there are stuff in her story that's unresolved, and which can lead to new and more interesting material. Bucky Barnes and Red Hood coming back from the dead all brought that material. Gwen coming back should do that.

    If people want Gwen to come back because she's Peter's "true wuv" and they want her to be the same bland love interest she was when she died, then yes, Gwen is better dead than alive because the people who say this are largely the readers who know her from 121-122 and maybe Spider-Man: Blue.

    It’s that Conway liked MJ better and wanted to get rid of Gwen, so he went with that when May was slated to die (something I also would’ve disagreed with).
    That's not really true. It was John Romita Sr. who wanted to kill a character. He did so because the stories were getting stale and spinning wheels and they needed to shake things up. Romita Sr. read Terry and the Pirates when he was young and that comic strip generated interested and stakes by casually killing characters too. When Conway came on board, Romita Sr. shared his ideas with him, Conway suggested Gwen was the best fit. She was significant and impactful but she was also disposable.

    Conway said that it was never his plan from the outset of his run to kill Gwen. He said in 2016 that if there was no plan to kill a character and if Gwen wasn't chosen and agreed by Romita Sr and others, he would have broken Peter and Gwen up, and have Peter and MJ date anyway. And he said later writers could reuse Gwen as an old girlfriend or do the love triangle thing were that to happen.

    Killing characters that weren’t created to be killed is dumb IMO. It’s cheap and an easy way to garner shock and impact.
    I agree that you shouldn't kill off characters gratuitously and you shouldn't do that often in Spider-Man definitely. At the same time, it's very debatable how to define "characters that weren't created to be killed". Stan Lee said that it wasn't his intention to kill Captain George Stacy. But he did it because it led to a great story and it fit the characters and so on.

  3. #18
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    Here's a treat for you Kurt, a translation of the mexican Spider-Man comic featuring the Peter/Gwen wedding

    Last edited by Miles To Go; 02-19-2019 at 02:11 AM.

  4. #19
    Ultimate Member juan678's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Here's a treat for you Kurt, a translation of the mexican Spider-Man comic featuring the Peter/Gwen wedding

    https://www.cbr.com/spider-man-mexic...nstead-killed/

  5. #20
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Nice. I hope more of those comics become available.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    For those interested. Chapter Fifteen of my What If Gwen Stacy Never Died? story is posted. Spider-Man and Ghost Spider (Gwen) learn the identity of Black Cat while Dr. Octopus plots to make a semi-reluctant Harry into his latest "masterpiece" -

    https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1276833...wined-Destines

    If so inclined, enjoy.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  7. #22
    Ultimate Member juan678's Avatar
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  8. #23
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    from Spider-Man: Death & Destiny by Lee Weeks

  9. #24
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan678 View Post
    It's nice to see somebody draw Gwen in something that's not the outfit she died in, but still delightfully retro .

  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    For those interested. Chapter Sixteen of my What If Gwen Stacy Never Died? story is posted. Punisher gets punished and a sinister new player enters the fray -

    https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1276833...wined-Destines

    If so inclined, enjoy.
    Last edited by Celgress; 11-12-2019 at 04:05 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Won't get into the "true love" thing, I'll just say that'll always be MJ and leave it at that.
    You know this annoys me i'm not going to but you're wrong, why i disagree with how he said it he has every right to think that Gwen is Peters true love, its his opinion who are you to tell him he is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    They've had opportunity after opportunity to bring Gwen back, the most recent being Clone Conspiracy, and it never works.
    Great so because you think it will never work it wont with a engaged writer, Miles i know you are pro peter/mj marriage fan if you can't keep your bias in check might i suggest very kindly that you stay out of any appreciation threads about characters you dont like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Gwen's death is as much a building block of Spider-Man's core mythology as losing Uncle Ben. Her death reminds Peter that he cannot save everyone. I'd much prefer they never cheapen that lesson.
    A lesson he has learned ten different ways since i'm sick to the back teeth or Gwen death is so important she has to stay dead like Uncle Ben so my OTP can be the true love couple because i dont like the character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    The only recourse is to do a fresh separate continuity where Peter and Gwen are married, base it off the timeline off that one classic "What If", that seemed to deal with Gwen a bit better and, while rushed, it delved briefly into Gwen coming to terms with who Peter is. The story ends on a sad note with Peter on the run fresh off of marrying her, but Gwen is depicted in it as someone who will fight to clear Peter as best she can.
    Because as much as i love him and think he is a legend Stan Lee couldn’t write female characters that well and Gerry Conway wasn’t that motivated to write Gwen well because he hated the character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Astonishing, every word in this sentence is wrong.
    One you do know what appreciation means right and by the way its not that Astonishing since you know Kurt is a fan of the character

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    1) Gwen wasn't strong. She was a damsel in distress on a few occassions before being fridged. She also cried all the time. And her reaction to Peter telling her he's Spider-Man is to collapse into a hysterical fit.

    2) Gwen wasn't intelligent. Her reaction to her father's death in ASM #91-92 was to join a white nationalist organization led by a blatant racist who hated her father and is obviously using her. If Gwen was intelligent, then she volunteered willingly to serve a white nationalist and racist with ties to hate groups. Which means if Gwen was smart she was a racist. If she's not a racist, then she is not smart and is indeed quite naive, stupid, and easily manipulated. Gwen was also someone who had no scientific chops contrary to belief. She is shown attending a few classes but she got into college because of family influence. She also posed as a bikini model in the Savage Land issues and she was shown far more often as a trophy girlfriend than "intellectual equal" (something invented out of whole cloth in the Emma Stone movie and not inherent to any pre-existing version of her. Nobody saw Gwen as a science geek until that movie).

    3) Gwen wasn't independent. Her entire existence as a character revolved around the men in her life, her Dad and her Boyfriend who she was basically grooming and moulding into becoming just like her dad in obvious Freudian substitution.

    4) Gwen didn't care for the man under the mask, because she didn't know Peter at all. The "Peter" she knew was the one that Peter presented to her. Her boyfriend lied to her multiple times, was not even remotely honest to her, gaslighted her in ASM #87 and she died without ever knowing the "real" Peter. And she was also a nasty bully to Aunt May, Peter's mother, and spent most of her time trying to make Peter more like George Stacy and less like him. So in no way did she like the real Peter. She never knew the real one, and to the extent she did, she didn't like him much.
    Well when you think that Sue Storm only ability was to turn invisible and had people in universe question her worth what can you say, it wasn’t until John Bryne that her powers were expanded and she began to develop into the Sue we know today is it surprising how he treated Gwen who was an actually civilian.
    As for being racist correct me but was she not promised Spider-Man's head who at the time she falisfly blamed for her fathers death something that the entire NYPD did as well. Plus she attend ESU so she wasn’t stupid, i think it makes her human she wanted revenge on spider-man for the death of her father if you're dad was murder wouldn't you want revenge i know i would at least want it.
    Gwen survived after her fathers death fine, yes she had time with family but i don't recall any major issues living on her own.
    He would have done the same to MJ, Peter believed he was protecting them remember he didn’t tell MJ she found out by spying as a matter of fact

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The question is which version of Gwen do people really want. Do they want the character that Lee-Romita wrote before her death, do they want the Gwen in the posthumous retrospective stories, do they want the Gwen that Emma Stone plays. Because aside from name, none of these versions have anything in common.
    Why not a fusion because from what little i have reread so far there is some potential in a few things

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Gwen Stacy that Lee-Romita wrote was a dippy, contradictory hot mess of a character. Interesting but not in the way her creators intended. She was a snob, a bully, possibly a racist, but presented as a good person in the narrative when all the bad stuff she did was never called out once. IF you want to bring her back, you can do so as a villain.
    That would make your day wouldn’t it, Gwen Stacy Peter's first love being brought back as a villain that you're perfect mary jane can be better, sorry but hell no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Lee-Ditko Gwen was a sneering snob who joined with Flash and Harry Osborn, and later Sally Green, in hazing Peter. She wasn't the character in the Lee-Romita era.
    I reread the first few issues of Gwen's run and she didn’t seem like a bully well more like a reluctant one that’s how i read it anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I'd be down with this, except maybe the last part due to personal preference. I'll always say the soft reboot caused by OMD (or the BND Era) was the best time to have reintroduced OG Gwen, talk about a squandered opportunity.

    Edit - Wow, I'm noticing some vocal character hate in this thread already, damn that didn't take long. Sometimes I think people misunderstand the purpose of these type of threads they are APPRECIATION THREADS NOT DETRACTION OR DEBATE THREADS.
    I heard a rumor there was someone who wanted to use OMD/BND to bring her back but the writers said no something about changing history too much or some other crap. I think Revolutionary_Jack and Miles aren’t aware of the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    You need to appreciate the character that exists, warts and all, and not the idealized one. If you are going to say stuff like Gwen is Peter's "true love" (whatever that means) and start listing stuff about her being independent or intelligent, without qualifying your statement, then there needs must be words.
    No that’s what a discussion or debate thread is for, this is to appreciation the good things and how we can improve the bad not turn round and say the character was a unpopular mess of a character who can't hold a candle to any other character get over yourselves, pretty sure i read someone that negatively wasn’t allowed in the appreciation threads. Its why i stay away from the Cyclops one, the Scott/Jean one and the Peter/MJ one. Simple if you don’t have anything good to say don’t say anything at all especially in appreciation threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That wasn't the only critique. She was also whiny, cried all the time, an annoying Daddy's girl and inconsistent. Any time she did something that indicated enormous character flaws the narration and everything bent over backwards to make her look good or still present her as a good person no matter how much it contradicted her actions. Basically everything that was true of Carlie Cooper was true of Gwen Stacy. And if Carlie Cooper isn't getting a pass, neither should Gwen.
    What about Mary Jane, why does she get a pass i mean she brokered the deal to dissolve her marriage but not one person has called her out on it either. Plus Gerry Conway has got on to say that she was Peter's Perfect lady and as such was boring and a non entity what did he do about it, he killed her off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Gwen's Stacy death made her the holy version...this ideal woman for Peter...People who say that weren't around for the whole run. They've forgotten how nasty she was. She wasn't the most stable. She'd be all lovey-dovey one moment, and then hands-off the next. She was very strange. Just prior to her death, there was a long period when they were on the outs.

    — Roger Stern Spider-Man Crawlspace Episode 37: Roger Stern Interview Pt. 2', Timestamp: 52:00 — 55:00
    A pro marriage fan putting down Gwen must be a Monday.
    Last edited by VolcanikTiger86; 07-22-2019 at 05:34 AM.
    Truth is the best policy

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It wasn't closed doors. Sam Bullitt was a right wing authoritarian DA from the get-go. Peter and Robbie Robertson compared him to Hitler multiple times before his connection to hate groups was revealed.
    Wait so before it was secret, sorry but I need to be sure did she volunteered for the campaign before or after the reveal. Having tunnel vision in relation to revenge is easily done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Gwen volunteered to his campaign for more or less his promise to kill Spider-Man or hunt him without due process.
    Was she aware of all the bad press or was she blinded by revenge because then again that says a lot, doesn’t help that her dad wouldn’t be happy with her though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    And none of that was ever explained nor was she called out for that.
    I mean i'm sure that there are things that MJ was never called out for like deal brokering with the devil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    If Gwen was ignorant, she's not very smart or bright. If she wasn't ignorant, she's a racist.
    Of course thats the only two options because the marvel univerise is black and white isnt

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In either case, she was willing out of revenge, to support someone her father opposed in the hope of killing Spider-Man i.e. what Harry Osborn does in the Spider-Man movies.
    And you can’t understand this, interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    What would bringing Gwen back have accomplished other than take away/regress Peter's growth in learning from, and moving past, her death? Having Gwen back would not have meant Peter would suddenly marry her instead of MJ, the whole point of OMD was to make Peter consistently single and free for any kind of romantic entanglement. Gwen would have been just another girlfriend, and likely would have went the way of Carlie Cooper depending on the writer's interest.
    Not true Carlie Cooper biggest issue was that they telegraphed her and Peter dating when they had no history where Gwen has history plus the pro marriage fans though MJ was getting replaced and Carlie went under character shilling that Gwen wouldn’t have needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Just as Peter lacks maturity and a meaningful direction without the marriage to MJ in BND, it'd be far worse with Gwen because she would have to be the older character due to having had the twins. She would have life experience that Peter had been denied by editorial...how would Peter be able to relate to her by that point? Wishing the twins weren't a part of her history is all you can do to dress down that aspect, but that is intellectually dishonest. Sins Past happened. Short of a timeline rewrite on par with 05 X-Men levels, it's still in play and it would always inform and affect Gwen's character going forward. She is a mother, she ages Peter. That directly contradicts Marvel's desires for the character.
    From what I understand JMS was going to use OMD to retcon Sins Past because he wanted the kids to be Peters but as you said editorial said no and Norman was chosen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    I think you can still appreciate a character for what they do wrong as much as they do right. It's an honest assesment of who they are and what the writers did to forge them into who they are remembered as today. The thread shouldn't have opened with half-truths about Gwen and the hyperbolic proclamation she is "Peter's true love" when canonically, that is categorically not the case.
    I think he should have made sure that it was his opinion and that’s what you should take it as instead of saying half truths Kurt has every right to like Gwen over Mary Jane and you and no – one else have the right to say he is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    First Love? Not even that, that was Betty.
    I was pretty sure that Betty was his first crush not his first love as far as I know that was still Gwen especially considering the relationship was deeper and he was going to propose to Gwen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    True Love? Absolutely not, that's MJ.
    That’s your opinion I disagree btw

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Over in the X-Men forums, there are appreciation threads for Jean Grey, Scott Summers, and one for their overall relationship together. All three of those threads have healthy back-and-forths about what the characters have done both positively and negatively. They are not content with being just a pro-merit echo chamber.
    I think we can disagree on the positives and have back and forth and different viewpoint however we should have one thing in common being fans of the character and the fact that Jack has said about the character and you basically say she was nothing but peters most tragic love I would say an agreement could be made that you aren’t
    Truth is the best policy

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    I can't speak for Jack, but I'm not trying to crap on Gwen, I'm trying to convey how she's more important to the Spider-Man story as a memory and a reminder that imprints itself on Peter's conscience and makes him more of a man she could be proud of.
    Which is a viewpoint I disagree with.
    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    I understand, but it does kind of come off as “Gwen works best as a corpse.” A sentiment I very much disagree with as Peter was already Spider-Man for several years (IRL), and it didn’t change him in magnitude of the way Uncle Ben’s death did. It wasn’t about the character’s growth. It’s that Conway liked MJ better and wanted to get rid of Gwen, so he went with that when May was slated to die (something I also would’ve disagreed with). Killing characters that weren’t created to be killed is dumb IMO. It’s cheap and an easy way to garner shock and impact.
    Kurt buddy I agree with everything except a character was slated to die it was unnamed, Conway choose Gwen because he thought she was a non entity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I actually do agree with that too. I am all for Gwen Stacy coming back from the dead. The thing is I want her to come back as a rounded flawed character with edges. I want her to come back as a more complex and darker character. The way to do that is to go back to the stories before her death and pick up on stuff that is interesting and worth doing. I want Gwen to come back and own up and accept her responsibility for backing Sam Bullitt and face consequences for doing so. I want Peter and Gwen to have a fight about her treatment about Aunt May, since in their relationship during the Lee-Romita era they are never shown having fights or tiffs, which is one of the many reasons why that relationship was unbelievable. And Peter was a terrible boyfriend to her, so there are issues she has with Peter that she needs to voice.
    Can you please tell me a issue where Gwen bullied Aunt May but yes she should face consequences for mistakes she made or even regrets. Though I have a funny feeling that in my mind she has less than you think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The only reason to bring a character back from the dead is that there are stuff in her story that's unresolved, and which can lead to new and more interesting material. Bucky Barnes and Red Hood coming back from the dead all brought that material. Gwen coming back should do that.
    I have commented on what you could do before and there is potential there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    If people want Gwen to come back because she's Peter's "true wuv" and they want her to be the same bland love interest she was when she died, then yes, Gwen is better dead than alive because the people who say this are largely the readers who know her from 121-122 and maybe Spider-Man: Blue.
    But why would you want that though I have said before we were robbed because Gwen wasn’t developed properly because Stan wasn’t good at it and Conway had no interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's not really true. It was John Romita Sr. who wanted to kill a character. He did so because the stories were getting stale and spinning wheels and they needed to shake things up. Romita Sr. read Terry and the Pirates when he was young and that comic strip generated interested and stakes by casually killing characters too. When Conway came on board, Romita Sr. shared his ideas with him, Conway suggested Gwen was the best fit. She was significant and impactful but she was also disposable.
    Well sorry but I disagree with Conway but what are you going to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    For those interested. Chapter Sixteen of my What If Gwen Stacy Never Died? story is posted. Punisher gets punished and a sinister new player enters the fray -

    https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1276833...wined-Destines

    If so inclined, enjoy.
    I loved it Celgress, if I remember my password I leave a review when I get a minute.
    Truth is the best policy

  14. #29
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Tiger, there was no point in replying to Miles, he's banned and can't reply back.

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    Thanks Digifiend, didn't know that
    Truth is the best policy

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