Who Should Write the Flash After Joshua Williamson?

[KC]

I mean, I don't know what to tell you. Barry had tons of charisma and personality in that series and was an incredibly likable and sympathetic lead character. Maybe you just don't particularly care for that personality type? Which is fine but, ironically enough, maybe Wally is a better fit for you?

I did not see any of that in the series. Barry had no charisma and I don't even think he was particularly likeable because there was not enough in his characterization to get attached to.

[Rakzo]

I think Barry would totally praise Wally to high-heaven. He always really believed in him .

But again, on the whole, I didn't find Waid's Barry all that lacking in confidence.

The problem is that Waid's level of glorification for Wally was suffocating because it appeared EVERYWHERE, sometimes in detriment to other characters and this wasn't even limited to Barry (Hell, why was The Flash from Kingdom Come Wally when the design screams: JAY?).

And yeah, Barry was considered boring by an entire generation for a reason.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I don’t have any examples on hand. But it is obvious when reading Barry’s early Silver Age stories.

No offence, but if it truly was obvious, it wouldn't be that hard to give even a handful examples of Barry being funny during the Silver Age. I'm not looking for a scan of a specific panel or anything, just a couple specific examples from your memory. If Barry was as funny as you are asserting, this shouldn't be that hard.

Keep in mind that this isn't a Barry vs. Wally thing for me. Again, I like all the Flash characters and I think each has grafted the most successful elements of the previous Flash onto themselves. Barry took the best of Jay. Wally took the best of Barry, and now Barry has taken the best of Wally, one of which is him being much more quippy than he was in the past. This isn't a contest about which character is better to me. Hell, it's pretty clear Wally took far more from Barry's tenure than Barry has from Wally's time. Waid & Johns's respective Wally West runs are both deeply indebted to elements from Barry Allen's time as The Flash.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Barry being boring gained most of its traction from how Waid wrote him. The prevailing annoying fan reaction was Wally fans whining about Barry being boring and this all stemmed from Barry getting his own series. Waid respecting and paying homage to Barry does not mean he wrote him well.

Again, no offence, but how long have you been reading comics? I've been reading comics since the early 1980s and can tell you unequivocally that Barry Allen, rightly or wrongly, was perceived as being boring for as long as I can remember. Marv Wolfman even commented on it in contemporaneous memos around the time of Crisis on Infinite Earths.

[KC]

No offence, but if it truly was obvious, it wouldn't be that hard to give even a handful examples of Barry being funny during the Silver Age. I'm not looking for a scan of a specific panel or anything, just a couple specific examples from your memory. If Barry was as funny as you are asserting, this shouldn't be that hard.

Keep in mind that this isn't a Barry vs. Wally thing for me. Again, I like all the Flash characters and I think each has grafted the most successful elements of the previous Flash onto themselves. Barry took the best of Jay. Wally took the best of Barry, and now Barry has taken the best of Wally, one of which is him being much more quippy than he was in the past. This isn't a contest about which character is better to me. Hell, it's pretty clear Wally took far more from Barry's tenure than Barry has from Wally's time. Waid & Johns's respective Wally West runs are both deeply indebted to elements from Barry Allen's time as The Flash.

I could give you examples like "in a fight with Captain Cold", "In a fight with Doctor Alchemy" or "he made a comment about Iris" but giving such vague examples are not helpful. I remember reading them so I know it's true but it is difficult to give more than that.

[KC]

Again, no offence, but how long have you been reading comics? I've been reading comics since the early 1980s and can tell you unequivocally that Barry Allen, rightly or wrongly, was perceived as being boring for as long as I can remember. Marv Wolfman even commented on it in contemporaneous memos around the time of Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Yes, he might have been perceived as being boring before then. But it got most of its traction currently from Waid's run and how Waid wrote Barry as it is iconic enough to Wally that most people who like Wally have read it.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

I may be misremembering but wasn't the whole reason that Barry was the major hero, along with Supergirl, to die in Crisis was that most editors and writers at the time found him to be incredibly boring? I'm not saying they were right but that perception was in full force long before Waid came along. Waid's preference for Wally is well known and he did, for various reasons, make Wally the more powerful Flash but, I'm sorry, I think you're imagining this vendetta that Waid had against Barry. He preferred Wally, sure, but there was no evidence of dislike towards Barry at all in the run itself. Was he underdeveloped in the main book? Sure, but that's because it wasn't his book and he was, very simply, long dead. Barry Allen was not at all a focal point of the book and that's how he was written.

As for the two minis that he wrote about Barry Allen, you may not like it but it has clearly struck a chord with a lot of us - so much so that these minis were the reasons why we like Barry in the first place. More than that, I found the way he portrayed Barry to be incredibly affectionate; showing none of this supposed "hate" that supposedly has for the character.

Edit: I see that I was basically just repeating what Bored at 3AM said in those first few sentences. Credit where credits due, and I think he's right on the money with this.

[Dred]

I don't get how showing Barry as the most competent and best leader in the JLA is disrespectful, either. Or The Life Story of The Flash, which is literally a love letter to Barry. Hell, arguably Wally's greatest moment is a testament to his respect for Barry despite the fans at the time

[Ilan Preskovsky]

I don't get how showing Barry as the most competent and best leader in the JLA is disrespectful, either. Or The Life Story of The Flash, which is literally a love letter to Barry. Hell, arguably Wally's greatest moment is a testament to his respect for Barry despite the fans at the time

Exactly!

Compare that to the original Flash: Rebirth. Not only did Johns retcon things that the only unique thing about Wally as the Flash was that he was able to make clothes out of speedforce, but he suggested that, not only was Barry, like, the best superhero ever, he was the creator of the Speed Force, while at the same time diminishing Barry by crowbarring in a moronic, tragic backstory, making him pretty damn unlikable and fixating on his bloody bowtie. I've liked, even loved, a lot of what Geoff Johns has done but the way he handled Rebirth didn't just make it the single worst thing he has ever written by a substantial distance, but it so thoroughly screwed up the overall Flash mythos that we're still trying to get past its effects a good decade later.

Now that is how you properly ruin a character (or five). Even if Waid made Barry seem a bit boring (and I don't think he did) that's child's play in comparison to what Johns did.

[Rakzo]

Exactly!

Compare that to the original Flash: Rebirth. Not only did Johns retcon things that the only unique thing about Wally as the Flash was that he was able to make clothes out of speedforce, but he suggested that, not only was Barry, like, the best superhero ever, he was the creator of the Speed Force, while at the same time diminishing Barry by crowbarring in a moronic, tragic backstory, making him pretty damn unlikable and fixating on his bloody bowtie. I've liked, even loved, a lot of what Geoff Johns has done but the way he handled Rebirth didn't just make it the single worst thing he has ever written by a substantial distance, but it so thoroughly screwed up the overall Flash mythos that we're still trying to get past its effects a good decade later.

Now that is how you properly ruin a character (or five). Even if Waid made Barry seem a bit boring (and I don't think he did) that's child's play in comparison to what Johns did.

Waid's "Barry has an evil twin which forced him to form another identity to fill the void of his missing brother" was equally as bad to be honest.

[Dred]

Exactly!

Compare that to the original Flash: Rebirth. Not only did Johns retcon things that the only unique thing about Wally as the Flash was that he was able to make clothes out of speedforce, but he suggested that, not only was Barry, like, the best superhero ever, he was the creator of the Speed Force, while at the same time diminishing Barry by crowbarring in a moronic, tragic backstory, making him pretty damn unlikable and fixating on his bloody bowtie. I've liked, even loved, a lot of what Geoff Johns has done but the way he handled Rebirth didn't just make it the single worst thing he has ever written by a substantial distance, but it so thoroughly screwed up the overall Flash mythos that we're still trying to get past its effects a good decade later.

Now that is how you properly ruin a character (or five). Even if Waid made Barry seem a bit boring (and I don't think he did) that's child's play in comparison to what Johns did.

Also, something I left out, the greatest thing Waid every did for Barry was make Iris West a much more layered, interesting, and personable character. The Life Story of Barry Allen is not just a great lens to the past through modern eyes, it develops Iris' personality as much as Waid did Wally. Barry is the beneficiary of his closest supporting character becoming all the better for it.

That said, Iris has become a lot more headstrong, gutsy reporter in the same vein as Lois and Linda but still.

Waid's "Barry has an evil twin which forced him to form another identity to fill the void of his missing brother" was equally as bad to be honest.

This had no effect on Barry, though, for however dumb Cobalt Blue is.

As a matter of fact, Barry and Wally's conversation during Chain Lightning is what a lot of us talk about when we talk about Waid writing Barry. They were faced with an impossible situation and Barry looked at Wally and pushed him forward into the fight. I don't understand how anyone thinks he disrespected Barry or made Barry look bad in favor of Wally. The entire point of Wally surpassing Barry being such a monumental story arc is defined by how great Barry is. It gives all due credit and then some because, without that credit, Wally's growth means less.

[married guy]

I thought Mark Waid walked that tightrope AMAZINGLY well.
Yes, he built up Wally West as the fastest Flash ever, but he did so without pissing all over Barry Allen and his legacy.
It was stated enough times that however good Wally got, he NEVER considered himself better than his uncle.
And honestly, how anyone could read JLA Year One or Brave & Bold and state Waid wrote Barry with no charisma or personality is totally beyond me.
At the time, and even now, I STILL think it's some of the best writing with character that's been printed in the last 40 years.

[KC]

I may be misremembering but wasn't the whole reason that Barry was the major hero, along with Supergirl, to die in Crisis was that most editors and writers at the time found him to be incredibly boring? I'm not saying they were right but that perception was in full force long before Waid came along.

Edit: I see that I was basically just repeating what Bored at 3AM said in those first few sentences. Credit where credits due, and I think he's right on the money with this.

And I will repeat what I said to Bored at 3AM. Yes, he might have been perceived as being boring before then. But it got most of its traction currently from Waid's run and how Waid wrote Barry as it is iconic enough to Wally that most people who like Wally have read it.

Waid's preference for Wally is well known and he did, for various reasons, make Wally the more powerful Flash but, I'm sorry, I think you're imagining this vendetta that Waid had against Barry. He preferred Wally, sure, but there was no evidence of dislike towards Barry at all in the run itself. Was he underdeveloped in the main book? Sure, but that's because it wasn't his book and he was, very simply, long dead. Barry Allen was not at all a focal point of the book and that's how he was written.

I am not sure if this is a reply to me or rakzo because I never said he had a vendetta against Barry. But all characters that a writer writes should be written well, Waid's boring, underwritten Barry was not. This also ultimately damaged the character as it led to a whole generation of Wally fans thinking Barry that is boring. And the heavy-handed way he glorified Wally was bad writing.

As for the two minis that he wrote about Barry Allen, you may not like it but it has clearly struck a chord with a lot of us - so much so that these minis were the reasons why we like Barry in the first place. More than that, I found the way he portrayed Barry to be incredibly affectionate; showing none of this supposed "hate" that supposedly has for the character.

I didn't see anything " affectionate" about the way Waid wrote Barry. You might like the mini's he created about Barry, but he was bad at writing Barry Allen in the way the character was written before his mini's.

[KC]

I thought Mark Waid walked that tightrope AMAZINGLY well.
Yes, he built up Wally West as the fastest Flash ever, but he did so without pissing all over Barry Allen and his legacy.
It was stated enough times that however good Wally got, he NEVER considered himself better than his uncle.
And honestly, how anyone could read JLA Year One or Brave & Bold and state Waid wrote Barry with no charisma or personality is totally beyond me.
At the time, and even now, I STILL think it's some of the best writing with character that's been printed in the last 40 years.

I think Rakzo and I have both adequately shown the way's Waid's writing of Barry pissed all over the character

Waid's Brave and the bold is a perfect example of Waid writing Barry as having no charisma or personality.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

Waid's "Barry has an evil twin which forced him to form another identity to fill the void of his missing brother" was equally as bad to be honest.

Ouch. Yeah, fair point. Except this was so bad an idea that it never actually had a hope in hell of ever seriously damaging the legacy of Barry Allen. Especially because, as Dred says, the very next arc again treated Barry with the utmost respect and did some beautiful stuff with the Wally/ Barry relationship.

Seriously, though, how the hell did both Waid and Augustyn think that the whole Cobalt Blue thing was anything less than a terrible idea? Especially as it was the first thing they did since returning to the book after Morrison and Millar filled in for a year.