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  1. #766
    Spectacular Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    My prediction is that it's a stepping stone to losing the secret identity all together. Eventually he'll just be a quasi-retired crimefighter who becomes a PI/Detective for hire without the mask.

    I mean... I know he doesn't have much in the way of supporting cast and all... but you'd think that after his father was murdered because someone knew he was Robin would make him think twice before just using his name... but y'know... comics. Add in Bendis isn't known for logical character based decisions when they oppose his 'this would be COOL!' mentality.
    I could see TPTB abandoning Tim as a costumed hero if this identity doesn't take.
    I don't want that, but if it happened, he'd make a pretty cool Gotham cop. Let him star in a new GCPD series.

  2. #767
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I could see TPTB abandoning Tim as a costumed hero if this identity doesn't take.
    I don't want that, but if it happened, he'd make a pretty cool Gotham cop. Let him star in a new GCPD series.
    That's what I've been saying for years. It makes total sense for Tim to finally retire, and continue on in the DCU as a plain clothes detective. Not wearing a cape is not going to make him less effective or less of a hero. It'll just make him a different kind of hero, and that's something the DCU could use more of.

    I think I like the new costume and name more than most here, from what I've seen. It might be sustainable. It doesn't offend me, at the very least. But if I had my way? Detective Drake over Superhero Drake every day. Hell, not like you cant put him back in tights if it doesn't work out.
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  3. #768
    Fantastic Member wonder39's Avatar
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    this is all I think of, hearing "Drake"...lol

    ludwigvondrake.jpg

  4. #769
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Drake is...adequate. Flamebird would have been a better choice, in my opinion. It pulls the name out of limbo. It is a thematic tie of sorts to Nightwing.

  5. #770
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Flamebird belongs to Bette Kane; they just need to get her back to using it.
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  6. #771
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I could see TPTB abandoning Tim as a costumed hero if this identity doesn't take.
    I don't want that, but if it happened, he'd make a pretty cool Gotham cop. Let him star in a new GCPD series.

    I don't know how he'd do as a cop. Something about Tim or any costumed hero working inside the system and following the rules and doing it by the book... just seems an odd fit. Of course they did it with Dick and I thought it was an odd fit there too.

    Myself, I see him more like the Question or a cliche' PI wearing a trenchcoat and busting up heads the same as he would as a bat-family, just... plain clothes and with his name in the phone book so people can find him. Works outside the system, but keeps things clean enough that the cops don't run him in too.


    Personally I prefer him as Robin. its' where he belongs... but I dont' see how they can make it work with Damian and Jason around. It's just TOO cluttered. If no Damian and no Jason running around then Tim could have been Robin forever. Same as E2 Dick was Robin long into his adult career. But now? I just don't think they can make it work.

  7. #772
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    How did Jason prevent Tim from being Robin forever?

  8. #773
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    How did Jason prevent Tim from being Robin forever?
    Because Jason died in the role. He didn't 'graduate'. Dick had been to date the ONLY one to treat Robin as a role that needed to be 'graduated' from. Tim tried to fill a hole that Jason left because Batman needs a Robin... not because Batman is training a sidekick academy where the Title of Robin = Freshman.

    Now that Jason is Back, and he's taken on his OWN identity too... now there is a standard that Robin is for kids and when you grow up you get your own name. It's become a 'starter identity'. Damian really puts the nail in that coffin... but even with Jason back we have two living ex-Robins who've moved on from the role and it's tough.

    I really hated Jason coming back. He was much better dead. He was always the answer to 'Death in comics don't mean anything'. You could point at Jason who'd been dead over a decade and how his example completely redefined the idea of 'kid sidekicks' and just how dangerous that world was... Now with both Jason AND bucky back... Death is just a joke.

  9. #774
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Because Jason died in the role. He didn't 'graduate'. Dick had been to date the ONLY one to treat Robin as a role that needed to be 'graduated' from. Tim tried to fill a hole that Jason left because Batman needs a Robin... not because Batman is training a sidekick academy where the Title of Robin = Freshman.

    Now that Jason is Back, and he's taken on his OWN identity too... now there is a standard that Robin is for kids and when you grow up you get your own name. It's become a 'starter identity'. Damian really puts the nail in that coffin... but even with Jason back we have two living ex-Robins who've moved on from the role and it's tough.

    I really hated Jason coming back. He was much better dead. He was always the answer to 'Death in comics don't mean anything'. You could point at Jason who'd been dead over a decade and how his example completely redefined the idea of 'kid sidekicks' and just how dangerous that world was... Now with both Jason AND bucky back... Death is just a joke.
    Honestly, if only three characters in the history of DC and Marvel were allowed to stay dead, then death was always a joke.

    Meanwhile, Lian Harper and Jonathan Kent are still gone so those two have more or less taken Jason and Bucky's places.

  10. #775
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Because Jason died in the role. He didn't 'graduate'. Dick had been to date the ONLY one to treat Robin as a role that needed to be 'graduated' from. Tim tried to fill a hole that Jason left because Batman needs a Robin... not because Batman is training a sidekick academy where the Title of Robin = Freshman.

    Now that Jason is Back, and he's taken on his OWN identity too... now there is a standard that Robin is for kids and when you grow up you get your own name. It's become a 'starter identity'. Damian really puts the nail in that coffin... but even with Jason back we have two living ex-Robins who've moved on from the role and it's tough.

    I really hated Jason coming back. He was much better dead. He was always the answer to 'Death in comics don't mean anything'. You could point at Jason who'd been dead over a decade and how his example completely redefined the idea of 'kid sidekicks' and just how dangerous that world was... Now with both Jason AND bucky back... Death is just a joke.
    But... there’s a huge difference in the circumstances that lead Jason to becoming Hood & Dick to becoming Nightwing. Dick graduated from Robin because it was time to become something new while Jason simply died in uniform and returned as something else. You have to completely ignore everything about why Jason became Hood to label it a graduation.

    Agent Z is right. If only 3 characters between DC & Marvel we’re allowed to stay dead, than death was always a joke. If they wanted death to mean something, they would have placed greater emphasis on the impact of being resurrection changed the characters. That is how you make death mean something, not “ b-b-b-but 3 whole characters stayed dead out of the hundreds who died & came back so clearly it means something!”. That’s just lazy.

  11. #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    But... there’s a huge difference in the circumstances that lead Jason to becoming Hood & Dick to becoming Nightwing. Dick graduated from Robin because it was time to become something new while Jason simply died in uniform and returned as something else. You have to completely ignore everything about why Jason became Hood to label it a graduation.

    Agent Z is right. If only 3 characters between DC & Marvel we’re allowed to stay dead, than death was always a joke. If they wanted death to mean something, they would have placed greater emphasis on the impact of being resurrection changed the characters. That is how you make death mean something, not “ b-b-b-but 3 whole characters stayed dead out of the hundreds who died & came back so clearly it means something!”. That’s just lazy.
    When I read the concept about three characters that can't back to life, two of these characters had already come back to life.

    I never thought that this concept represented death seriously. I think it was a mockery to the situation of death in the comics.

    I mean only three characters can permanently die in comics. So, all the other characters will be fine at the end.
    Last edited by Konja7; 09-16-2019 at 03:31 PM.

  12. #777
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    Agent Z is right. If only 3 characters between DC & Marvel we’re allowed to stay dead, than death was always a joke. If they wanted death to mean something, they would have placed greater emphasis on the impact of being resurrection changed the characters. That is how you make death mean something, not “ b-b-b-but 3 whole characters stayed dead out of the hundreds who died & came back so clearly it means something!”. That’s just lazy.
    DC used to be better about it. The old mentality was that DC brought characters back from the Dead... DC Replaced them. There was a time in the 90's where Wally West, Kyle Rayner, and connor hawke could team up with Tim Drake and nobody would bat an eye. DC leaned HEAVY into Legacy. Marvel? Not so much. They may have a few replacements for an arc or two, but by the end of the year, the original REAL character was back. The replacments may get the USAgent, Thunderstrike or War Machine rebranding... but Captain America = Steve Rogers and that's all there was to it.

    When Barry, Hal and Ollie were dead... there were fans screaming that they wanted them back... but there was a VERY real possibility that it PROBABLY wouldn't happen. They had been replaced and the world was moving on and when they finally DID come back it was a LOOOONG time coming. When Mr. Fantastic died... it immediately launched into a 'search for Reed Richards' storyline. But even when there was a POSSIBLITY of the hero's returns... Bucky and Jason were still off the table. Bucky died in WWII and Jason had been replaced by someone the fans liked more, and his death was serious plot point that strengthened Batman and the whole Gotham Crew.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    But... there’s a huge difference in the circumstances that lead Jason to becoming Hood & Dick to becoming Nightwing. Dick graduated from Robin because it was time to become something new while Jason simply died in uniform and returned as something else. You have to completely ignore everything about why Jason became Hood to label it a graduation.
    But that's what it will become. Already the fact that he was dead for YEARS has become just a speedbump in his history and eventually it'll stop being mentioned at all. Especailly with the endless reboots where we aren't even sure if or what is still in continuity. Similar to the Parallax retcon, HOW he became Red Hood is less important than he was Robin and now he's not. And again the 5 year timeline with 4 robins was a JOKE. Diminished EVERYONE involved. Now days I think he was probably only dead for a few months at best.

    Like I said, I think Tim as a Forever Robin could have worked with either Jason OR Damian... but honestly, I don't think it works with BOTH of them around. Honestly, Damian should have changed his name. I honestly think Damian would have always thought himself 'above' just the newest in the long line of Robin apprentices. He was better than all of them combined. He's not taking Anyone's name. Except maybe Batman himself... and evne that is a stretch. He strikes me as a kid who's striving for his OWN legacy. Something that he's not in ANYONE's shadow.. Ra's OR Bruce. But y'know... trademarks are trademarks.

  13. #778
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    DC used to be better about it. The old mentality was that DC brought characters back from the Dead... DC Replaced them. There was a time in the 90's where Wally West, Kyle Rayner, and connor hawke could team up with Tim Drake and nobody would bat an eye. DC leaned HEAVY into Legacy. Marvel? Not so much. They may have a few replacements for an arc or two, but by the end of the year, the original REAL character was back. The replacments may get the USAgent, Thunderstrike or War Machine rebranding... but Captain America = Steve Rogers and that's all there was to it.

    When Barry, Hal and Ollie were dead... there were fans screaming that they wanted them back... but there was a VERY real possibility that it PROBABLY wouldn't happen. They had been replaced and the world was moving on and when they finally DID come back it was a LOOOONG time coming. When Mr. Fantastic died... it immediately launched into a 'search for Reed Richards' storyline. But even when there was a POSSIBLITY of the hero's returns... Bucky and Jason were still off the table. Bucky died in WWII and Jason had been replaced by someone the fans liked more, and his death was serious plot point that strengthened Batman and the whole Gotham Crew.
    He "strengthened" it? By what, being victim blamed from the moment he died? For years DC painted him as the "bad Robin", "the problematic one", "reckless and never listened" (like they ignored all the times Dick was reckless and didn't listen). So, no. It didn't strengthen anything. It painted a kid in a bad light.




    But that's what it will become. Already the fact that he was dead for YEARS has become just a speedbump in his history and eventually it'll stop being mentioned at all. Especailly with the endless reboots where we aren't even sure if or what is still in continuity. Similar to the Parallax retcon, HOW he became Red Hood is less important than he was Robin and now he's not. And again the 5 year timeline with 4 robins was a JOKE. Diminished EVERYONE involved. Now days I think he was probably only dead for a few months at best.

    Like I said, I think Tim as a Forever Robin could have worked with either Jason OR Damian... but honestly, I don't think it works with BOTH of them around. Honestly, Damian should have changed his name. I honestly think Damian would have always thought himself 'above' just the newest in the long line of Robin apprentices. He was better than all of them combined. He's not taking Anyone's name. Except maybe Batman himself... and evne that is a stretch. He strikes me as a kid who's striving for his OWN legacy. Something that he's not in ANYONE's shadow.. Ra's OR Bruce. But y'know... trademarks are trademarks.
    So, do you not read Damian or anything? Damian worked extensively with Dick, and the two formed the Dynamic Duo while Bruce was "dead". Damian came to respect and care for Dick, and thus the role of Robin as Batman's partner.

    But hey, I just follow these characters.

  14. #779
    Spectacular Member witchboy's Avatar
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    I don't see how Jason takes anything away from Tim. Jason could be Red Hood doing his own thing and Tim could've still been a forever Robin because he wanted to, he chose it. It's completely Damian who edged him out. I think Tim does suffer more from the too many Robins and it seems to be a struggle to find a place for him. That's why I thought Tim as the new Oracle or a cop would work because it would give him something new to do to distinguish him from all the other Bat folk.

  15. #780
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    It's worth noting that in the early 2000s (before Graduation Day killed his team, War Games killed his girlfriend, and Identity Crisis killed his dad), Tim confided to Dick that he always considered “Robin” to be a temporary thing, something he'd eventually move on from. He never specified what he intended to move on to; but the idea of always being Robin never appealed to him.
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