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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by failo.legendkiller View Post
    Maybe cause they share the same spot? Isn't that enough?
    I understand you don't care about Tim, anyway you're here in a Tim topic.
    I really don't want to get into another Tim/Damian war discussion. So if you want to argue about it and be constructive you're welcome, otherwise look for Damian/Babs relationship in other places.

    I'm sorry if I'm rude but as I said many times before I'm tired of Damian fanbase coming in Tim thread just for criticize.

    This isn't a Tim appreciation thread. This is a thread about a new identity for Tim (and the discussion about who should be the Robin is inevitable). You don't need to be a fan or like Tim to comment in this thread.

    Now, some Tim's fans have also been hostile towards Damian in this thread too.

    If you don't like to see opinions against Tim, maybe you should stop to see this thread. As I said, this isn't an appreciation thread.
    Last edited by Konja7; 02-21-2019 at 10:34 AM.

  2. #62
    Mighty Member dropkickjake's Avatar
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    It is pretty interesting though, that bother Damian and Tim seem a bit dependent on Bruce to me.

    Tim is conceptually tied to Batman. Looking at his history, I think that most people would agree that he was really lost in the new52, a Tim in name only, if you will. This was also the first time he was really distanced from Bruce. Even as Red Robin, his story centered on looking for Bruce Wayne. As Robin he could do his own thing, so long as he was still being trained by and going on patrol with Bruce.

    Damian, meanwhile, sees Robin as his birthright. He is the Son of the Bat! How could he not be Robin?

    The difference, to me, is that I think that Damian would be interesting without the Robin moniker and Tim has been less so. Add to that the fact that Batman writers seem reluctant to use Damian in their stories and the fact that Morrison planned to leave Batman's status quo as he found it. I would be far more interested in reading about Damian releasing the title of Robin to pursue his birthright of Batman in his own way.

    I'm not sure what character development this would be erasing for Tim, but n52 really hasnt been my cuppa tea anyway.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I've read the wiki. It should be enough for everyone to be taken seriously, when they are speaking of a character they don't like (without actively hating him, mind you).

    I tried his solo, found it utterly bad since he stole away Bruce's stuff instead of creating its own. And since I already loath the very idea leading to Tim's creation, that Batman needs family to not lose it, well, I don't see why I should force myself to read books which won't interest me before talking about the character.

    ANd I loath this idea not because of Tim the character, who is the perfect Robin material. But because it's what has plagued both Batman and the rest of the Batfamily ever since.

    If Batman needs family to not go insane, he's a fundamentally weak and shallow character, who needs others to not lose his moral compass. And the rest of the Batfamily loses agency because their role cease to be independent heroes to turn into being Bruce's caretakers, and thus forever in his shadow.

    Tim's reason of being is what led to the current Batman run and the much decried estrangement of the Bat-Family : since Batman loses it when he's alone, his allies have to be removed from those stories to work. And it necessarily derails the other characters (just look at the Nightwing book currently). It's a lose-lose situation.

    I also find of dubious interest a character who becomes a hero -and a very talented at that, considering that (however dumb it was) he defeated Cassandra Cain in a duel- but doesn't want to be a hero. It's hardly appealing and readers don't need a perfect everyday man to relate to a character. I'm White, most of my favorite characters at DC aren't and they aren't my favorite because I would wish to be anything else than White, but because I find them compelling and can empathize with their struggle. After all, if characters needed to be closer to me, none of DC's stable -or Marvel really- would be able to me. What's an everyday man in the US isn't the same in France, after all.
    You have the right to your opinion, but I would argue that the complain that Tim "stole from Bruce" is illegitimate. I agree that if Tim was just a random character who appeared and was suddenly doing all these things it would read as a terrible gary-stu...but that's not the case. The case is Tim -earned- the right to those stories. His years as Robin and his solo developed him that way.

    He earned those stories.

    Going further into a different argument...I would argue that he earned the right to be Batman's heir more than Dick, Jason, or Damian ever have. Dick is typically made batman's heir because he was the "first." Not because his tactics or style fit the role of Batman. I will states that Dick's experience does qualify him for the role and he is my second choice for Batman's heir, but he doesn't crime fight like Bruce.

    Jason breaks Bruce's code of no killing and is thus unsuitable to be Batman.

    Damian is treated as Bruce's heir because he is the blood relative. He's not earned that. He's give it by "right of blood."

    Tim, in tactics, style, and adherence to the ideal...earned the right to be Bruce's heir and his style of stories than any other robin.

    That's why Tim vs. Damian will always be controversial. It's right of blood vs. the one who earned it.

  4. #64
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    Tim hasn't earned the right because he copies Bruce more. Dick has faced and accomplished for more than Tim ever has, the fact that he doesn't copy Bruce as much as Tim is why he'll always be a far better choice then Tim. At the end of the day a new Batman that inherently copies Bruce isn't interesting. They might as well just go with the cloning route then. The right of blood vs. the one who earned it was Dick and Damian's battle. That's what they as partners had to overcome in Batman and Robin. Tim vs. Damian friction is because they step on each other toes. Damian is seen as the one who took Robin from Tim, yet at the same time Tim hasn't actually moved on from Robin or the things associated with Robin. DC has created a situation where they are basically battling for Robin. And so fans follow suit.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-21-2019 at 12:19 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Tim hasn't earned the right because he copies Bruce more. Dick has faced and accomplished for more than Tim ever has, the fact that he doesn't copy Bruce as much as Tim is why he'll always be a far better choice then Tim. At the end of the day a new Batman that inherently copies Bruce isn't interesting. They might as well just go with the cloning route then. The right of blood vs. the one who earned it was Dick and Damian's battle. That's what they as partners had to overcome in Batman and Robin. Tim vs. Damian friction is because they step on each other toes. Damian is seen as the one who took Robin from Tim, yet at the same time Tim hasn't actually moved on from Robin or the things associated with Robin. DC has created a situation where they are basically battling for Robin. And so fans follow suit.

    It's not simply a matter of copying Bruce. It's a matter of earning those stripes. Unlike Bruce, we got to see Tim develop over the course of several years and become that detective.

    Furthermore, I would argue that being Batman requires a certain methodology. Dick has never managed crime in Gotham like Tim did as Robin. Dick is an action hero. Tim is a detective. There is overlap, but the core of their story and character is different. Style-wise, Tim fits the role of Batman better.

  6. #66
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    Tim came on the scene as a prodigy detective. That isn't really something we saw him earn. In fact Tim's detective feats are still often terrible IMO. Most of the time it isn't come by through deducing but inherit knowledge. Tim is more a clairvoyant that a detective if you ask me. Still Dick has done everything Tim has done and more. Tim "the Detective" is a paper title. Dick was doing it long before Tim came on the scene, and quite frankly they all do it. Dick became a master of that methodology long before Tim even existed, that his methodology evolved into something more his own fits the idea of a new Batman better.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-21-2019 at 12:46 PM.

  7. #67
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    Thinking that Dick isn't a Detective is fanfiction crap. He isn't the dumb one. He isn't some juvenile huggy boi who loves all his widdle bwothers. He doesn't go around pestering Jason for hugs. In the during his time at college, Dick spent his time investigating mysteries and snall scale crimes on campus not fighting supervillains. He has the last truly great detective story from Detective Comics under his belt.

    The idea of taking away skills from Robins to distinguish others is a bad idea.

    And regardless, being more like Bruce isn't a better Batman. Bruce is the best Bruce and no one is going to do a better job of it than him. The best thing to bring to any position is yourself. Not doing the best impersonation of the person you replaced.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
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  8. #68
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    The only Robin's who has actually successfully graduated to another identity is Dick Grayson, and that was pre-Crisis. He had moved beyond just being Robin, so Jason Todd was created to be a new Robin, so the successful formula of Batman and Robin could continue and Dick's character could continue to develop without being regressed.

    Jason didn't graduate - he died, and then was brought back fully formed as the Red Hood. He didn't actually develop naturally to get to that point, his resurrection and actions afterwards were created with the end point already in mind.

    Tim's graduation was forced - they wanted Damian to be Robin, so Tim couldn't be Robin anymore (Making Damian Robin was absolutely the correct move, incidentally). It could have worked too, if they hadn't saddled him with Red Robin as a name permanently. It would have worked as a temporary one - Tim using it to protest his removal for his attempted murderer, before accepting the change when he sees how Damian changed for the better as a result of being Robin and finally deciding on a new name and costume.

    As a permanent graduated identity, it doesn't provide a separation from the Robin identity or actually signify graduation the way Nightwing does. He was literally still Robin, just not THE Robin. Which is why Tynion could essentially make him Robin again during Tec by literally giving him a Robin costume with two Rs, which Bendis could finish by removing the Red from the name. And also probably why he's still 16, the name Robin is associated with youth in comics, so they couldn't make him too old.

    Course, even if Tim hadn't been called Red Robin, we could still would up in this situation with a perennially 16, back to Robin Tim. I do feel it'd be less likely though.

    As for a new identity for Tim, if this was circa 2009/10 ish, I would've said Redwing:
    1) Tim used it as an online handle both as Robin and Red Robin, so the name wouldn't come out of nowhere.
    2) Would've continued his red/black colour scheme.
    3) Brings to mind Nightwing and thus Dick and Tim's brotherly relationship.
    4) Would've continued Tim's naming trend - Redbird, Redboard, Redwing.

    Now, any graduation Tim makes is probably going to be associated with Kon - there's two Robin's and two Superboy's. They're not going to have Damian stay Robin and have Jon change, or Tim change but Kon stays Superboy. So I think they'll do the YJ4 as a set and have all four choose new names together, though I've no idea what they choose for Tim now, or what would be a good choice. Redwing doesn't feel appropriate any more, with the retcons and backpedalling and different character relationships.

    And Tim should never be Batman. Ever. If there's a list of "Who Should Be The Next Batman After Bruce Wayne?", Tim shouldn't be on it. Any stories you could tell with him in the role would either not be different enough from the same story told with Bruce to matter, or be better told by someone else in the Batfamily. Also, Tim has never wanted to be Batman and found the growing similarities between him and Bruce disturbing, so why do people WANT him to be Batman?

  9. #69
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    Hell of a first post there, welcome.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Tim came on the scene as a prodigy detective. That isn't really something we saw him earn. In fact Tim's detective feats are still often terrible IMO. Most of the time it isn't come by through deducing but inherit knowledge. Tim is more a clairvoyant that a detective if you ask me. Still Dick has done everything Tim has done and more. Tim "the Detective" is a paper title. Dick was doing it long before Tim came on the scene, and quite frankly they all do it. Dick became a master of that methodology long before Tim even existed, that his methodology evolved into something more his own fits the idea of a new Batman better.
    Dick has never played different enemies against each other on a strategic level like Tim has. Tactically yes. Strategically no. Dick has never prepped a "hitlist" a la Batman. Tim has. The detective moniker is more than just being a detective. I never said Dick wasn't a detective but he doesn't think strategically like Tim does.

    Learn proper definitions. Strategic is big picture thinking. Tactically is on the ground. Dick has rarely if ever had the strategic thinking of Bruce/Tim.

  11. #71
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    Learn proper history beyond the 2000's. Dick was the brain of his generation too, long before Tim came on the scene. We have seen Dick think strategically, hell we have even seen him play his brothers against each other. This isn't something exclusive to Bruce or Tim. Unfortunately its a trope we have seen with seemly every Bat character. Difference is Dick fans don't celebrate when they have him act like Bruce. Cause we don't need 2 Bruces, and Batman-lite is a cancer that does more harm then good.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-21-2019 at 02:02 PM.

  12. #72
    Mighty Member dropkickjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    Dick has never played different enemies against each other on a strategic level like Tim has. Tactically yes. Strategically no. Dick has never prepped a "hitlist" a la Batman. Tim has. The detective moniker is more than just being a detective. I never said Dick wasn't a detective but he doesn't think strategically like Tim does.

    Learn proper definitions. Strategic is big picture thinking. Tactically is on the ground. Dick has rarely if ever had the strategic thinking of Bruce/Tim.
    I haven't read enough NTT to refute your second point, but I'd be surprised if Dick never stowed strategic (long term planning) aptitude in what was DC's most successful team book at the time.

    As for the first point, the "heir apparent" to the Bat should simply always be who is most qualified *at that time.* In this present moment, the most experienced at solo heroing probably isn't the 16 year old Tim. It also probably isn't 13 (?) year old Damian. Thats from an in story perspective. From an editor's perspective, Tim being most similar to Bruce (which I'm not refuting), makes him the worst possible candidate. With Dick, with Jim, with Azrael, you got a *different* batman. The difference is what made the story worth telling.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    Dick has never played different enemies against each other on a strategic level like Tim has. Tactically yes. Strategically no. Dick has never prepped a "hitlist" a la Batman. Tim has. The detective moniker is more than just being a detective. I never said Dick wasn't a detective but he doesn't think strategically like Tim does.

    Learn proper definitions. Strategic is big picture thinking. Tactically is on the ground. Dick has rarely if ever had the strategic thinking of Bruce/Tim.
    Ok, i like Tim too, he is my favorite and all, but this is wrong, you really need to learn more about Dick.
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  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DACSHeyes View Post
    The only Robin's who has actually successfully graduated to another identity is Dick Grayson, and that was pre-Crisis. He had moved beyond just being Robin, so Jason Todd was created to be a new Robin, so the successful formula of Batman and Robin could continue and Dick's character could continue to develop without being regressed.

    Jason didn't graduate - he died, and then was brought back fully formed as the Red Hood. He didn't actually develop naturally to get to that point, his resurrection and actions afterwards were created with the end point already in mind.

    Tim's graduation was forced - they wanted Damian to be Robin, so Tim couldn't be Robin anymore (Making Damian Robin was absolutely the correct move, incidentally). It could have worked too, if they hadn't saddled him with Red Robin as a name permanently. It would have worked as a temporary one - Tim using it to protest his removal for his attempted murderer, before accepting the change when he sees how Damian changed for the better as a result of being Robin and finally deciding on a new name and costume.

    As a permanent graduated identity, it doesn't provide a separation from the Robin identity or actually signify graduation the way Nightwing does. He was literally still Robin, just not THE Robin. Which is why Tynion could essentially make him Robin again during Tec by literally giving him a Robin costume with two Rs, which Bendis could finish by removing the Red from the name. And also probably why he's still 16, the name Robin is associated with youth in comics, so they couldn't make him too old.

    Course, even if Tim hadn't been called Red Robin, we could still would up in this situation with a perennially 16, back to Robin Tim. I do feel it'd be less likely though.

    As for a new identity for Tim, if this was circa 2009/10 ish, I would've said Redwing:
    1) Tim used it as an online handle both as Robin and Red Robin, so the name wouldn't come out of nowhere.
    2) Would've continued his red/black colour scheme.
    3) Brings to mind Nightwing and thus Dick and Tim's brotherly relationship.
    4) Would've continued Tim's naming trend - Redbird, Redboard, Redwing.

    Now, any graduation Tim makes is probably going to be associated with Kon - there's two Robin's and two Superboy's. They're not going to have Damian stay Robin and have Jon change, or Tim change but Kon stays Superboy. So I think they'll do the YJ4 as a set and have all four choose new names together, though I've no idea what they choose for Tim now, or what would be a good choice. Redwing doesn't feel appropriate any more, with the retcons and backpedalling and different character relationships.

    And Tim should never be Batman. Ever. If there's a list of "Who Should Be The Next Batman After Bruce Wayne?", Tim shouldn't be on it. Any stories you could tell with him in the role would either not be different enough from the same story told with Bruce to matter, or be better told by someone else in the Batfamily. Also, Tim has never wanted to be Batman and found the growing similarities between him and Bruce disturbing, so why do people WANT him to be Batman?
    As a Tim Drake fan, i agreed with this post 100%.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by failo.legendkiller View Post
    Maybe cause they share the same spot? Isn't that enough?
    I understand you don't care about Tim, anyway you're here in a Tim topic.
    I really don't want to get into another Tim/Damian war discussion. So if you want to argue about it and be constructive you're welcome, otherwise look for Damian/Babs relationship in other places.

    I'm sorry if I'm rude but as I said many times before I'm tired of Damian fanbase coming in Tim thread just for criticize.
    Are you forgetting I was responding to you and that was my 1st mention of Damian on this thread?

    Not wanting them to have a relationship isn't a Tim/Damian thing. I just don't want them to have a relationship because I don't think they need one. They barely cross paths so it's not necessary.

    How that is a Tim/Damian thing baffles me but whatever.

    Looking at this thread. The criticism isn't coming from posters that one would class as 'Damian' fans [I'm sure you are fully aware of this since it's easy to see who posters stans]
    Dietrich is the only one I would call a 'Damian' fan and he wasn't even being that critical. So that statement is false and deliberately misleading.

    This is a discussion thread not an appreciation thread and it might not fit with your made up head canon but not every fan that is critical of Tim is a Damian fan.

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