What New Identity Should Tim Drake Take?

[Güicho]

...Spice Wing.

Crispy, Buffalo, Fried. BBQ, Asian, Cajun, Picante ?

Also Flame Bird and Spice Wing would make for a nice combo.

[Shamrock Holmes]

But these ages are based on fan made time lines, these are not official, and the characters were not written like they were that age. Or at least Tim wasn't for the others the differnce wouldn't be big.

If you go by the official ages pre flashpoint ages:
- Bruce was stated to be 34 or 35 (which made no sense)
- Kate was 32
- Dick was 26 or 27
- Steph was 19
- Tim was 17
- Damian was 10
- Jason and Cass age was never stated that late in the continuity, but based on their age differnce to Tim before OYL they would have also been 19
- Barbaras age was actually never clearly stated, but she was iirc said to be the same age as Dick in Black Mirror (even if she has allways been older than him in previous stories)

So as to avoid rehashing the arguement we had on a previous thread, I'll suggest that the writers seem to be unusually obsessed with making Tim as young as possible so sometimes flub his age references (unneccesarily, he could just as easily work as college rather than high school kid for the most part). Based on the most recent officially published timeline [Guide to the DCU 2000], during NML the Batman Family should be at least:

Bruce: 37 (12 years since his debut at 25)
Kate: ??? (not yet established)
Dick: 22 (10 years since his debut at 12) or 26 (20 during Crisis, 6 years earlier)
Steph: 17 (debut at 14, 3 years earlier)
Tim: 16 (debut at 13, 3 years earlier)
Damian: ??? (not yet established)
Jason: 17 or 18 (11 or 12 at debut, 6 years earlier, may be younger due to his temporary death)
Cass: ~16 (Stated as such during NML, which takes place that year)
Babs: 25 (16 at debut, 9 years earlier - though if her time as a Congresswoman is still in continuity and to preserve her age to Dick 18 at debut [fresher in college] seems acceptable)

Given the explicit intent of both 52 and One Year Later, at least two years must pass between NML and Flashpoint, however the 5-6 years suggested by DCU Smartmemes is somewhat speculative.

As far as Damian's age, however the most explicit reference is to him being "ten years old" (B & R #2), shortly after Final Crisis. There were three publishing years between Final Crisis and Flashpoint, but as the major events (Blackest Night, Brightest Day, Reign of Doomsday) don't appear to take place in real time, it's possible that he was still 10 circa Flashpoint if there are in text references to support it.

Kate's age is extremely nebulous, while IIRC she's sometimes implied to be around Bruce's age, explicit textual references don't necessarily support this: Her origin suggests that she attended the USMA but was discharged - likely as a senior - so was probably 22-23, then spent "months" as a socialite, one year "in the field", then two years training under Col Kane before debuting as Batwoman part way through 52 - so could have been as young as 26 at debut, so about the same relative age as the older estimate for Nightwing and/or about 10-11 years younger than Bruce.

[scary harpy]

Crispy, Buffalo, Fried. BBQ, Asian, Cajun, Picante ?

Also Flame Bird and Spice Wing would make for a nice combo.

with some fries and a glass of tea.

[MajorHoy]

with some fries and a glass of tea.

A "glass of tea" sounds more southern U.S. than northern U.S. (since north of the Mason-Dixon line just plain "tea" usually refers to tea served hot, not iced tea).

[Dataweaver]

Tim is still probably the best “utility Robin,” if that makes sense. He’s a more proven character as an autonomous ally than Damian, while still being a very good complementary partner to Bruce as Batman. His more somber personality and experience mean he can switch between a combination Everyman/Straight Man to someone’s zany antics or the Seen-It-All adventurer with a high tolerance for crazy stuff. He’s simply more flexible than the other Robins in that way.

HOWEVER, there are two caveats.

The first is that his adaptability is also somewhat easy to screw up if a writer doesn’t get his voice or personality - see Scott Lobdell’s take on the character, where he made him such a broad archetype of the Robin idea that he became a bland, characterless tool in a knockoff Disco-Nightwing suit. This can happen to other characters, and I’d argue that Damian, *if* hit by this, gets it worse because he’s so different a character from the norm, I think Tim is somewhat more susceptible to a careless writer, since editorial might not catch it as easily as they would for Damian or Jason.

The second is that Tim *had* moved beyond the Robin role in the post-Batman RIP world, especially in the Yost and Nicieza penned Red Robin series. He had a strikingly different look because of the cowl, a matured MO and set of strengths and flaws, and an updated series cast and status quo that, regardless of issues people had with it, was working and selling pretty well. Then the New 52 happened, and the things that made the name change actually matter were stripped away; even Tim’s new costume lost some of the identity difference. The attempt to “right the ship” with the Renorth costume switch just changed the context of the problem. Time was Robin in all but name, and while written better, was still basically just occupying his Pre-Red Robin slot.

Bendis is trying to re-inaugurate the graduation, presumably under the supposition that the after-effects of the New 52 and Rebirth necessitate making the change more pronounced and heralded a bit. Hopefully, it works.

This. I actually do prefer Tim to move beyond being Robin; his pre-Flashpoint Red Robin days were good ones for the character, and regressing him to being Robin-in-all-but-name in the New 52 was one of the worst things that every happened to him — second only to what Didio did to him back in the 2000s, with War Games (Stephanie's dead!) and Identity Crisis (his father's dead!). And Infinite Crisis (Conner's dead!). And the end of the Flash (Bart's dead!). He went from the one Robin who wasn't defined by tragedy to the one who was losing everyone he cared about, one by one. Then Final Crisis hit, and Bruce died…

My thought has been that if he's going to be Robin in all but name, he might as well take back the Robin name. But if Bendis is going to restore his “graduation” (another term I don't like due to a certain poorly conceived Didio-mandated event in the 2000s; but it's applicable here), then yeah; I'm fine with a new identity.

[Aahz]

Babs: 25 (16 at debut, 9 years earlier - though if her time as a Congresswoman is still in continuity and to preserve her age to Dick 18 at debut [fresher in college] seems acceptable)

Where do you get the 16 from? In the post crisis continuity, she started Batgirl after finishing college. Since it was also established that she finshed highschool early at the age of 16, she would have been around 19 (I guess, I'm not that familiar with the US education system).

Kate's age is extremely nebulous, while IIRC she's sometimes implied to be around Bruce's age, explicit textual references don't necessarily support this: Her origin suggests that she attended the USMA but was discharged - likely as a senior - so was probably 22-23, then spent "months" as a socialite, one year "in the field", then two years training under Col Kane before debuting as Batwoman part way through 52 - so could have been as young as 26 at debut, so about the same relative age as the older estimate for Nightwing and/or about 10-11 years younger than Bruce.

It is actually clearly established in Detective Comics #858, there it is said that that 20 years ago her sister an mother were killed on her 12th Brithday, which makes her 32.

[Shamrock Holmes]

Where do you get the 16 from? In the post crisis continuity, she started Batgirl after finishing college. Since it was also established that she finshed highschool early at the age of 16, she would have been around 19 (I guess, I'm not that familiar with the US education system).

Her graduating high school at 16 is specifically stated in Secret Origins vol 2 #20 (1987) and confirmed more recently in Birds of Prey #103 (2007), however you appear to be correct that she didn't become Batgirl until after graduating college with a Master's Degree, which takes 4 years on a combined undergrad-postgrad scheme and 5 to 7 as standard, suggesting that she was at least 20 when she first became Batgirl if not 21/22, suggesting that she should be 29 to 31 c. NML.

It is actually clearly established in Detective Comics #858, there it is said that that 20 years ago her sister an mother were killed on her 12th Birthday, which makes her 32.

That's a little older than my estimates suggest and leaves a bit of a gap (best fit between her USMA explusion and her "socialite phase") and is bracketed by Bab's potential age during the same period (minimum 31-33), but that works.

[Aahz]

That's a little older than my estimates suggest and leaves a bit of a gap (best fit between her USMA explusion and her "socialite phase") and is bracketed by Bab's potential age during the same period (minimum 31-33), but that works.

I found her quiete long "socialite phase" also a little wired (and it made her look pretty hypocritical on occasionally).
They seemed to have changed that now with Rebirth and had her become Batwoman at age 27.

I'm wondering how they will handle it in the show.

[Bat-Meal]

Kate's age is extremely nebulous, while IIRC she's sometimes implied to be around Bruce's age, explicit textual references don't necessarily support this: Her origin suggests that she attended the USMA but was discharged - likely as a senior - so was probably 22-23, then spent "months" as a socialite, one year "in the field", then two years training under Col Kane before debuting as Batwoman part way through 52 - so could have been as young as 26 at debut, so about the same relative age as the older estimate for Nightwing and/or about 10-11 years younger than Bruce.

I found her quiete long "socialite phase" also a little wired (and it made her look pretty hypocritical on occasionally).
They seemed to have changed that now with Rebirth and had her become Batwoman at age 27.

I'm wondering how they will handle it in the show.

Judging from the original casting call info, I think she's supposed to be 27, but 25 in military academy flashbacks. And since Batman's career is supposed to predate the Arrow's career, Bruce is likely 8 to 10 years older than Kate (in the Arrowverse).

[Aahz]

Judging from the original casting call info, I think she's supposed to be 27, but 25 in military academy flashbacks.

I was less thinking of her age, and more about if she will have her self destructive "socialite phase".

[Bat-Meal]

I was less thinking of her age, and more about if she will have her self destructive "socialite phase".

Hrm, the comment in the trailer "you're the female Bruce Wayne", combined with the series description of Kate being away from Gotham training before she decides to become a vigilante makes me think they swapped the order of things.

My guess, after getting kicked from Academy for whatever reason Jacob decides to help Kate continue her education anyway, maybe as an excuse to get her out of the city. Kate perhaps inherits Bruce's company (or just buys Wayne Enterprises) some time during the pilot, and goes a bit stupid with the wealth/power (and secretly being Batwoman), and hence the comment about her being the female Bruce Wayne given his public persona. I think her socialite phase is the start of the series, hence why she is seemingly such a jerk.

There was also something in one of the interviews with the actress that makes me think this, it was something along the lines of Kate having fun and the ladies loving her or some such. I can't remember the exact quote, but it sounded like she was talking about how the character is now, not in flashbacks.

Also, it always irked me that Supergirl's sister pinched more than a few things from the Batwoman comics (including the drunken depressed phase, and Maggie), to the point that a few years back non-comic-fans of the show were calling for Alex to become Batwoman.

[Aahz]

We will have to see, I just kind of have the feeling that they will jump over the "drunken depressed phase" or tone it massively down, since that doesn't really fit the idea of a "female Bruce Wayne".

[Bat-Meal]

We will have to see, I just kind of have the feeling that they will jump over the "drunken depressed phase" or tone it massively down, since that doesn't really fit the idea of a "female Bruce Wayne".

Depends on which version of Bruce Wayne they are using for reference. In the Nolan films he presented himself as a jerk publicly, pretending to be drunk, and crashing vehicles. Who's to say Kate knew he was acting? Most people didn't. I think they may have dropped the depressed stuff too, though, I agree with you there. But all we have to go on is a not good trailer, so I'm only theorising stuff.

[MajorHoy]

Let's see . . . how many posts in row have we had now where there's no mention of how do we solve a problem like Tim?

[Pohzee]

Let's see . . . how many posts in row have we had now where there's no mention of how do we solve a problem like Tim?

Yeah! Someone get in here and suggest that he be called Redbird!