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  1. #586
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Dan Jurgens could make Ric put on a Robin costume next month with no explanation, as could Lobdell with Jason. But there is one Robin who appears works as Batman's partner right now, and it's not Tim.

    Tim was reverted to Robin with the clear intention of rerolling him into a new identity . But he is not THE Robin.

    I say this not as a Damian fan, or a Tim fan, but as a fan of the general idea of Robin. I have no dog in this fight, just saying it how I see it.
    Last edited by Pohzee; 05-18-2019 at 10:10 PM.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  2. #587
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Dan Jurgens could make Ric put on a Robin costume next month with no explanation,
    That wouldn't be any more out of character than anything else about Ric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    as could Lobdell with Jason. But there is one Robin who appears works as Batman's partner right now, and it's not Tim.
    Tim is exactly as much Batman partner now as he was for the vast majority of his own series: he's always been the most independent of the Robins. So I don't see that as disqualifying him as Robin.
    Rogue wears rouge.
    Angel knows all the angles.

  3. #588
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    He has no longer operates out of Gotham City and has not for the entire duration of his return to the mantle. He returned once in the most recent issue of Batman, but clearly is only visiting for the sake of his former mentor.

    This Robin is not at all connected to Gotham or Batman or the Bat-Franchise: things that I happen to consider important to be a Robin Robin.

    He is a Robin, and he is a Robin right now, but he is clearly not THE Robin right now.

    THE Robin being Batman's partner. Damian hasn't done a great job of it, but a better one and was by merit THE Robin before the two-Robin incident. Nothing since then has indicated a shift from that. Even Tim's evolution will be connected to Young Justice, not Batman.
    Last edited by Pohzee; 05-18-2019 at 10:21 PM.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  4. #589
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Tim's first adventure as Robin took place in Europe; he did not operate it off Gotham City and had not for the entirety of his time since assuming the mantle. He did not return <at all until the very end of that adventure. But he was Robin.

    And you said it yourself: he has returned to the mantle. He's not the same kind of Robin that Damian is; but then, he never has been. As I said before, he's always been the most independent of the Robins; and this merely continues that tradition.

    Tim is Robin, right now.
    Rogue wears rouge.
    Angel knows all the angles.

  5. #590
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Robin is Batman's partner. Tim took the mantle of Robin to be Batman's partner. And he was more than that, but that is ultimately an important part of being Robin. Tim's second stint as Robin is in no way connected to Batman.

    So Tim is Robin right now, but he is not the Robin right now. With "the Robin" being the second half of "Batman and... "

    Ya know, his partner. The Dynamic Duo.

    And without a connection to Batman, what does it matter of Tim is Robin or not? He may as well be Redwingbird.

    Batman needs a Robin. Tim as an independent superhero doesn't.
    Last edited by Pohzee; 05-18-2019 at 10:34 PM.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  6. #591
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Tim is a Robin right now.

  7. #592
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Robin is Batman's partner. Tim took the mantle of Robin to be Batman's partner. And he was more than that, but that is ultimately an important part of being Robin. Tim's second stint as Robin is in no way connected to Batman.

    So Tim is Robin right now, but he is not the Robin right now. With "the Robin" being the second half of "Batman and... "

    Ya know, his partner. The Dynamic Duo.

    And without a connection to Batman, what does it matter of Tim is Robin or not? He may as well be Redwingbird.
    So Damian isn't Robin in the current Supersons title? Because he certainly isn't Batman's partner there. How about in Teen Titans? He's not exactly being Batman's partner there, either.

    Did Tim cease being Robin when Azbats kicked him out of the Batcave? No. For the first year of his ongoing series, Tim wasn't Batman's partner. But he was still Robin.

    “Robin is the second half of Batman and…” is an overly restrictive definition, and one that I reject.

    Tim is Robin. Right now.
    Rogue wears rouge.
    Angel knows all the angles.

  8. #593
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Damian is Batman's partner in Detective Comics.

    And c'mon man. You should know BATMAN NEEDS A ROBIN? What does being Robin provide to Tim if he's not associated with Batman?

    And its an overly strict definition that need not be true in every instant, but generally true for a character. Which it is not for Tim.

    So fine, if we're splitting hairs, Tim is not Batman's partner but he is a superhero named Robin.

    Damian is currently Batman's partner Robin. There is a difference whether you choose to recognize it or not. Robin is bigger than Tim Drake and ultimately connected to the world of Batman.

    Whether or not this should be the case is not what I am arguing. Simply that Tim is and has not been Batman's partner Robin for some time.
    Last edited by Pohzee; 05-18-2019 at 10:47 PM.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  9. #594
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Damian is Batman's partner in Detective Comics.

    And c'mon man. You should know BATMAN NEEDS A ROBIN? What does being Robin provide to Tim if he's not associated with Batman?
    And Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azrael and Flamebird and Batcow.

    Batman doesn't need “Robin”, per se; he needs family and friends to ground him. At the time that Tim first became Robin, he was the family that Bruce needed. These days, that's not so much what Robin is about — which is a good thing, because Damian doesn't exactly strike me as “the light to balance Batman's darkness” that was what Tim originally suggested to be Robin's raison d'etre.
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 05-18-2019 at 10:51 PM.
    Rogue wears rouge.
    Angel knows all the angles.

  10. #595
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    If Batman doesn't need a Robin, then Tim should've been content to leave Dick as Nightwing rather than urge him to return as Robin.

    Batman and Robin will never die!
    Last edited by Pohzee; 05-18-2019 at 10:54 PM.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  11. #596
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    For what in-story reason is he no longer Red Robin anyway? Last I saw of him was in 'Tec when the Gotham Knights disbanded.

  12. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    No, Tim surrendered the name to Damian and instead eventually went by "Red Robin".

    It's up to Tim to figure out a new one for himself if he doesn't stay with "Red Robin".
    (If Tim intended to take back the "Robin" mantle from Damian, he's about ten years too late at this point.)
    I'd prefer it if he remained with "Red Robin." He worked well in the role prior to the New52. But some fans have never been big on it.

  13. #598
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    I find it interesting that as soon as someone suggests that maybe it should be Damian, not Tim, who changes his codename, we don't get a bunch of posts defending Damian's right to the title; we get a bunch of attacks on Tim, arguing that he has no legitimacy as Robin and/or trolling his fanbase.
    Damian was in desperate need of purpose and direction. Dick took him on as his Robin as a means to both guide him and keep an eye on him. Dick didn't do it to spite Tim (who I am a fan.) No, Dick recognized Tim had matured beyond the role of Robin at that point in time. Which he had. The fault is that DC decided to derail that growth with the New52. Where he has floundered for years on end.

    Dick moved on. Jason moved on. It was time for Tim to fly the nest and carve out his own unique place in the DCU.

  14. #599
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    And Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azrael and Flamebird and Batcow.

    Batman doesn't need “Robin”, per se; he needs family and friends to ground him. At the time that Tim first became Robin, he was the family that Bruce needed. These days, that's not so much what Robin is about — which is a good thing, because Damian doesn't exactly strike me as “the light to balance Batman's darkness” that was what Tim originally suggested to be Robin's raison d'etre.
    Damian as Robin only really worked while Dick served as Batman. Because suddenly the roles were flipped. Instead of being the "light" to Batman's "darkness" it was the other way around. It is why Damian's tenure alongside Bruce wasn't particularly long. The balance was off.

    Bruce could have taken Tim back upon his return. But, like Dick, he came to realize Tim had matured and had grown beyond being Robin. Bruce even acknowledged that Tim was now just as good, if not better, than him as a detective. I wish the writers would return to that.

  15. #600
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    . . . Bottom line: Tim has just as much right to the Robin identity as Damian does; and if he wants it back, he's free to go back to being Robin. If Damian doesn't like there being two Robins, he's free to change his own codename to something unique to him, and then make it his own.
    Or, Damian could just cripple Tim so Tim could no longer be active as "Robin".

    Besides, shouldn't Tim have outgrown the Robin name by now?

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