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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
    How much do you actually know about Tim Drake ? i'm genuinely curious, your posts in this thread have me in doubt
    Well, I know the gist of his story, and even read the first fifteen or so issues of Red Robin.

    But the character never clicked to me. I didn't read his time as Robin (I started comics with New 52 and have a real hard time returning bacl further than Grant Morrisson. Mainly because I prefer to read my comics in French when possible, and there isn't comics translated with Tim Drake in there that I know off).

    I was especially offended by the way Red Robin shamelessly stole from Batman instead of making Tim grow with his own stories and supporting/rogue characters. He was to be the Detective for Ra's al Ghul - just like Batman. He was to be the potential perfect heir to the League of Shadow - like Batman. He was to be dark and brooding and trotured - like Batman. ANd he kicked everyone's ass - again, like Batman but with even less justification.

    And I really hate the idea that were introduced with him, that Batman need a Robin to not lose it. I find it stupid, and terribly bad for the franchise's health.

    @Mataza : Wasn't Damian : Son of Batman out of continuity ? Batman was dead in there after all. I also think that it wasn't a great book, at all, because the creative team tried too hard to make Damian this badass killer and all - I would need to reread it however, my memories of it are fuzzies.

    Robin: Son of Batman did a far better job than it to set up foundations for a solo series and I'm still bummed that it was discontinued and some of it poached to be given to Jon (I'm thinking of you Maya).
    Last edited by Korath; 02-21-2019 at 12:19 AM.

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Well, I know the gist of his story, and even read the first fifteen or so issues of Red Robin.

    But the character never clicked to me. I didn't read his time as Robin (I started comics with New 52 and have a real hard time returning bacl further than Grant Morrisson. Mainly because I prefer to read my comics in French when possible, and there isn't comics translated with Tim Drake in there that I know off).

    I was especially offended by the way Red Robin shamelessly stole from Batman instead of making Tim grow with his own stories and supporting/rogue characters. He was to be the Detective for Ra's al Ghul - just like Batman. He was to be the potential perfect heir to the League of Shadow - like Batman. He was to be dark and brooding and trotured - like Batman. ANd he kicked everyone's ass - again, like Batman but with even less justification.

    And I really hate the idea that were introduced with him, that Batman need a Robin to not lose it. I find it stupid, and terribly bad for the franchise's health.

    @Mataza : Wasn't Damian : Son of Batman out of continuity ? Batman was dead in there after all. I also think that it wasn't a great book, at all, because the creative team tried too hard to make Damian this badass killer and all - I would need to reread it however, my memories of it are fuzzies.

    Robin: Son of Batman did a far better job than it to set up foundations for a solo series and I'm still bummed that it was discontinued and some of it poached to be given to Jon (I'm thinking of you Maya).
    Maya was at least put into the last arc of Rebirth (Action Comics, I think?) for the whole Bizarro World Arc. And dealing with Robzarro hitting on her.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Well, I know the gist of his story, and even read the first fifteen or so issues of Red Robin.

    But the character never clicked to me. I didn't read his time as Robin (I started comics with New 52 and have a real hard time returning bacl further than Grant Morrisson. Mainly because I prefer to read my comics in French when possible, and there isn't comics translated with Tim Drake in there that I know off).

    I was especially offended by the way Red Robin shamelessly stole from Batman instead of making Tim grow with his own stories and supporting/rogue characters. He was to be the Detective for Ra's al Ghul - just like Batman. He was to be the potential perfect heir to the League of Shadow - like Batman. He was to be dark and brooding and trotured - like Batman. ANd he kicked everyone's ass - again, like Batman but with even less justification.

    And I really hate the idea that were introduced with him, that Batman need a Robin to not lose it. I find it stupid, and terribly bad for the franchise's health.

    @Mataza : Wasn't Damian : Son of Batman out of continuity ? Batman was dead in there after all. I also think that it wasn't a great book, at all, because the creative team tried too hard to make Damian this badass killer and all - I would need to reread it however, my memories of it are fuzzies.

    Robin: Son of Batman did a far better job than it to set up foundations for a solo series and I'm still bummed that it was discontinued and some of it poached to be given to Jon (I'm thinking of you Maya).
    Ya, your pretty much spot on with Red Robin. How many times have we heard how Tim is so much like Bruce, certainly back then. Fans of his especially liked to bring it up in a misguided attempt to explain why he should have gotten the mantle. And Red Robin openly leaned into that idea hard.

    And yes Damian: Son of Batman was out of continuity. It also, despite being rather terrible, sold almost exactly the same as Red Robin hilariously enough.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-21-2019 at 12:55 AM.

  4. #49
    Mighty Member failo.legendkiller's Avatar
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    Another thread about Damian fans raging against Tim fans and vice versa.
    I'm really tired of this.

    Dc needs to fix this controversy, build up the relationship between this characters and smooth things out for good.
    It could be a great story, but I don't expect nothing from actual editorial.
    Last edited by failo.legendkiller; 02-21-2019 at 07:01 AM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Itís obviously gonna be Damian and Jon that will have to change their name. The failures with the YJ gen is going to cemented them, and characters like Damian and Jon will pay the price. Jon is already on his way out. Change is good, just not for the YJ characters lol.
    Yeah I found that quote amusing, this guy is the last person to talk about change.

    That said I'm not sure about whether Damian will stop being Robin, he's Robin in animated films and games and has enjoyed a recognizable role in these adaptations, its something WB wants to keep going,Tim simply has not, they didn't even allow Snyder to replace Damian with Duke and Tim isn't exactly a brand new character or someone with whom they can target POCs and moreover Robin is more important to Teen Titans than Young Justice. And Korath kind off hit the nail in the head with his talk about Damian and Tim's ages/history getting retconned if the Robin mantle reverts to Tim.

    Really the Robin mantle doesn't really grant Tim anything other than maybe the chance to star in a solo book. I dont see him getting used as Robin in mainstream media especially in any significant capacity. Similarly Batman books aren't like the 90's, Jason isn't dead, we have Damian, even Dick has moved firmly back in to Batman camp so essentially writers aren't under obligation to explore only Bruce and Tim's dynamic. They have far more options at their disposal.

    I can see WB/DC being interested in pushing Damian forward with a new mantle but I dont see them being strong advocates of having Tim back as Robin again. It really makes no difference from where they're standing, at the most they probably just want Damian to be stable enough before he makes the jump. They can always get rid of Tim and replace him with a new Robin. anyway.

  6. #51
    all cops are bastards Elmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Well, I know the gist of his story, and even read the first fifteen or so issues of Red Robin.

    But the character never clicked to me. I didn't read his time as Robin (I started comics with New 52 and have a real hard time returning bacl further than Grant Morrisson. Mainly because I prefer to read my comics in French when possible, and there isn't comics translated with Tim Drake in there that I know off).

    I was especially offended by the way Red Robin shamelessly stole from Batman instead of making Tim grow with his own stories and supporting/rogue characters. He was to be the Detective for Ra's al Ghul - just like Batman. He was to be the potential perfect heir to the League of Shadow - like Batman. He was to be dark and brooding and trotured - like Batman. ANd he kicked everyone's ass - again, like Batman but with even less justification.

    And I really hate the idea that were introduced with him, that Batman need a Robin to not lose it. I find it stupid, and terribly bad for the franchise's health.
    Kind of confused. You say you know the "gist" of the character but you have only read one series starring him?

    Bruce is literally going nuts before a Lonely Place of Dying and even afterwards. The idea was simplified to Batman needs a Robin but it was mainly that Batman needs FAMILY. He was in a period of cutting everyone off and Tim Drake brought him out of that, because he shared that view of protecting Gotham. However he never wanted to be Batman and still doesn't. Even in Red Robin he's a reluctant protagonist. He is forced into this role because his father figure was lost and nobody wanted to believe him that he was alive. Tim Drake is appealing because he is as brilliant as Batman with a nerdy modern youth charm, and doesn't really want to be a superhero. However, he has a big heart and an impeccable mind. He knows when he is useful. I agree that they shouldn't turn him into another Batman-lite, but he was never going down that road to begin with.

    Tim Drake to me is a wonderful character and everyone is entitled to their opinion but I don't think you've read enough to be taken seriously
    Last edited by Elmo; 02-21-2019 at 07:40 AM.
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  7. #52
    Mighty Member dropkickjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by failo.legendkiller View Post
    Another thread about Damian fans raging against Tim fans and vice versa.
    I'm really tired of this.

    Dc needs to fix this controversy, build up the relationship between this characters and smooth things out for good.
    It could be a great story, but I don't expect nothing from actual editorial.
    Disagree. I think that Tim and Damian's relationship should always be a bit tense. Same with Dick and Jason, IMO. We don't need a bunch of kids singing kum by yah. Tension between batfamily members (where it makes sense) is a good thing. I like the dynamic of Dick, the golden boy, always being a little wary of Jason the black sheep who does, by the by, kill people when he deems necessary.

    Fans should get over it though. Thats clear.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by dropkickjake View Post
    Disagree. I think that Tim and Damian's relationship should always be a bit tense. Same with Dick and Jason, IMO. We don't need a bunch of kids singing kum by yah. Tension between batfamily members (where it makes sense) is a good thing. I like the dynamic of Dick, the golden boy, always being a little wary of Jason the black sheep who does, by the by, kill people when he deems necessary.
    Tim is treated far more like The Golden Boy than Dick is. I promise you'll never see a story where Tim is a filthy wino homeless bum.

  9. #54
    Mighty Member failo.legendkiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dropkickjake View Post
    Disagree. I think that Tim and Damian's relationship should always be a bit tense. Same with Dick and Jason, IMO. We don't need a bunch of kids singing kum by yah. Tension between batfamily members (where it makes sense) is a good thing. I like the dynamic of Dick, the golden boy, always being a little wary of Jason the black sheep who does, by the by, kill people when he deems necessary.

    Fans should get over it though. Thats clear.
    I'm not saying they should became best friends or similiar, I think they should build up a relationship. They can always be in counterpart, make fun of each other or something like that, but with RESPECT.
    At the moment the one thing they have in common is that one is the usurper of the other. That's not right, we need to move on from that.

  10. #55
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    I wish the character of Damian had never been created. The little bastard just seems like an obnoxious mockery to me.

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmo View Post

    Tim Drake to me is a wonderful character and everyone is entitled to their opinion but I don't think you've read enough to be taken seriously
    I've read the wiki. It should be enough for everyone to be taken seriously, when they are speaking of a character they don't like (without actively hating him, mind you).

    I tried his solo, found it utterly bad since he stole away Bruce's stuff instead of creating its own. And since I already loath the very idea leading to Tim's creation, that Batman needs family to not lose it, well, I don't see why I should force myself to read books which won't interest me before talking about the character.

    ANd I loath this idea not because of Tim the character, who is the perfect Robin material. But because it's what has plagued both Batman and the rest of the Batfamily ever since.

    If Batman needs family to not go insane, he's a fundamentally weak and shallow character, who needs others to not lose his moral compass. And the rest of the Batfamily loses agency because their role cease to be independent heroes to turn into being Bruce's caretakers, and thus forever in his shadow.

    Tim's reason of being is what led to the current Batman run and the much decried estrangement of the Bat-Family : since Batman loses it when he's alone, his allies have to be removed from those stories to work. And it necessarily derails the other characters (just look at the Nightwing book currently). It's a lose-lose situation.

    I also find of dubious interest a character who becomes a hero -and a very talented at that, considering that (however dumb it was) he defeated Cassandra Cain in a duel- but doesn't want to be a hero. It's hardly appealing and readers don't need a perfect everyday man to relate to a character. I'm White, most of my favorite characters at DC aren't and they aren't my favorite because I would wish to be anything else than White, but because I find them compelling and can empathize with their struggle. After all, if characters needed to be closer to me, none of DC's stable -or Marvel really- would be able to me. What's an everyday man in the US isn't the same in France, after all.

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
    Kind of confused. You say you know the "gist" of the character but you have only read one series starring him?

    Bruce is literally going nuts before a Lonely Place of Dying and even afterwards. The idea was simplified to Batman needs a Robin but it was mainly that Batman needs FAMILY. He was in a period of cutting everyone off and Tim Drake brought him out of that, because he shared that view of protecting Gotham. However he never wanted to be Batman and still doesn't. Even in Red Robin he's a reluctant protagonist. He is forced into this role because his father figure was lost and nobody wanted to believe him that he was alive. Tim Drake is appealing because he is as brilliant as Batman with a nerdy modern youth charm, and doesn't really want to be a superhero. However, he has a big heart and an impeccable mind. He knows when he is useful. I agree that they shouldn't turn him into another Batman-lite, but he was never going down that road to begin with.

    Tim Drake to me is a wonderful character and everyone is entitled to their opinion but I don't think you've read enough to be taken seriously
    To put in another way Tim was obsessed with RobinDick. Stalked the hell out of Batman and Robin. Jason Dies Tim busts into a grieving household and does a sales pitch for the role in a roundabout why so he comes across like he's not trying to worm is way in. Nightwing [you know THE Robin and actual family] agrees to to come back and work with Bruce [not to mention having more family around will help Bruce cope with the loss]

    But no Nightwing won't do it has to Robin because reasons. Forget that this the original. The one who defined the role and the other half of the dynamic that Tim is trying to convince us must be restored. Tim apparently knows Robin better than Robin.

    DC comes up with a made up catch phrase to justify why Batman would ever take another kid in after Jason regardless of how that makes Batman look and writers do their very best to ignore the the reason why Tim was now part of the team Batman keeps getting darker.

    Batman didn't need Robin. What her needed was professional help from a Grief Counsellor, and his family [Dick and Alfred]

    Tim has a very badly executed origin story that hinges on OOC writing, plot holes and a false premise. Subsequent comics haven’t tried to fix it, so these problems persist and undermine his character.
    Last edited by Fergus; 02-21-2019 at 09:50 AM.

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by failo.legendkiller View Post
    I'm not saying they should became best friends or similiar, I think they should build up a relationship. They can always be in counterpart, make fun of each other or something like that, but with RESPECT.
    At the moment the one thing they have in common is that one is the usurper of the other. That's not right, we need to move on from that.
    I don't see why they have to relate or get along. All bat allies have relationships. I would rather writers build up Damian's relationship with Babs or Kate[that one is important since she is a relative]

  14. #59
    Mighty Member failo.legendkiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    To put in another way Tim was obsessed with RobinDick. Stalked the hell out of Batman and Robin. Jason Dies Tim busts into a grieving household and does a sales pitch for the role in a roundabout why so he comes across like he's not trying to worm is way in. Nightwing [you know THE Robin and actual family] agrees to to come back and work with Bruce [not to mention having more family around will help Bruce cope with the loss]

    But no Nightwing won't do it has to Robin because reasons. Forget that this the original. The one who defined the role and the other half of the dynamic that Tim is trying to convince us must be restored. Tim apparently knows Robin better than Robin.

    DC comes up with a made up catch phrase to justify why Batman would ever take another kid in after Jason regardless of how that makes Batman look and writers do their very best to ignore the the reason why Tim was now part of the team Batman keeps getting darker.

    Batman didn't need Robin. What her needed was professional help from a Grief Counsellor, and his family [Dick and Alfred]

    Tim has a very badly executed origin story that hinges on OOC writing, plot holes and a false premise. Subsequent comics haven’t tried to fix it, so these problems persist and undermine his character.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    I don't see why they have to relate or get along. All bat allies have relationships. I would rather writers build up Damian's relationship with Babs or Kate[that one is important since she is a relative]
    Maybe cause they share the same spot? Isn't that enough?
    I understand you don't care about Tim, anyway you're here in a Tim topic.
    I really don't want to get into another Tim/Damian war discussion. So if you want to argue about it and be constructive you're welcome, otherwise look for Damian/Babs relationship in other places.

    I'm sorry if I'm rude but as I said many times before I'm tired of Damian fanbase coming in Tim thread just for criticize.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by failo.legendkiller View Post
    Another thread about Damian fans raging against Tim fans and vice versa.
    I'm really tired of this.

    Dc needs to fix this controversy, build up the relationship between this characters and smooth things out for good.
    It could be a great story, but I don't expect nothing from actual editorial.
    Sounds boring

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