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  1. #76
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Jason successfully graduated. Graduating to me means vacating the role [doesn't matter how] then going on to a new identity that you make your own. One that endures. Becoming more than Robin.

    Jason most definitely has succeeded in ditching Robin evolving into his own unique identity and making it wildly successful one at that.

    Death and a massive smear campaign was how he graduated.

  2. #77
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    Dick has never played different enemies against each other on a strategic level like Tim has. Tactically yes. Strategically no. Dick has never prepped a "hitlist" a la Batman. Tim has. The detective moniker is more than just being a detective. I never said Dick wasn't a detective but he doesn't think strategically like Tim does.

    Learn proper definitions. Strategic is big picture thinking. Tactically is on the ground. Dick has rarely if ever had the strategic thinking of Bruce/Tim.
    Did you just say “learn proper definitions” and then use contingency plans as an example as to why Tim was more strategic and thus a better detective? Because those are not related at all.

    Also, contingency plans are themselves tactics, NOT strategies.

    And on a side note, go read Grayson 8 for Dick’s tactics against JL members; Robin War, Grayson 16, and Better than Batman for his strategies of taking down large enemy organizations; and The Black Mirror, The Gauntlet, Who is Donna Troy, or literally any issue from Dick’s time at Hudson U in the 70s to see him being a Detective.
    Last edited by Pohzee; 02-21-2019 at 04:04 PM.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  3. #78
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    I’m not perfect or have read everything, so for those arguing Dick is just as strategic as Tim, can you please show where he plays that chess master roll in stories?

  4. #79
    Mighty Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    It's kinda sad we keep having these discussions about Tim.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I've read the wiki. It should be enough for everyone to be taken seriously.
    No, all your posts here are a joke. The only reason they get any attention is that some people just really dislike Tim and use your ignorant rants as ammo.

    @Fergus, @Godlike13 and @dietrich among them.

  6. #81
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Now now, let's not go there.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-21-2019 at 05:14 PM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Tim came on the scene as a prodigy detective. That isn't really something we saw him earn.
    Thats how the character was presented. He was good at deducing things. Damian was good at killing people, so was cassandra. Dick was good at flipping around, Jason had a problem with authority.

    In fact Tim's detective feats are still often terrible IMO.
    Your opinion sucks imo.

    Most of the time it isn't come by through deducing but inherit knowledge.
    Tim detective feats are plentiful, most of them are in his Robin solo and happen casually but we can see the detective logic and sound reasoning behind them.
    Detective.jpg


    Tim is more a clairvoyant that a detective if you ask me.
    I wouldnt ask you, because you dont know anything about the character. Red Robin is a book where the writer has no idea what the mystery will be, therefore he cant writer how to solve it. Therefore he just doesnt focus on it and instead tells another story.
    Nicieza later on does have Tim do some stuff without showing us the reasoning, but there was a lot more than gaps of reasoning with Nicieza, plenty of times we had stuff happening off screen. Thats just how he wrote the character.


    Still Dick has done everything Tim has done and more.
    Nope. Dick never really got the chance. His career was very different.


    Dick was doing it long before Tim came on the scene, and quite frankly they all do it.
    This is true.

    Dick became a master of that methodology long before Tim even existed, that his methodology evolved into something more his own fits the idea of a new Batman better.
    Tim was better at it. They even had a little competition about it. Bruce, Dick and Alfred trained tim to be a top detective, its all in the funny books.
    Nobody would think Tim was that good of a detective if we were just being told that.
    Last edited by Mataza; 02-21-2019 at 05:16 PM.

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    No one ever claims that Damian or Jason are among the top assassains as far as killing skill in the DCU like people do with Tim's intellect. Which IMO misses the appeal of the charcter anyway.

    People who reduce Dick to "the flippy Robin" have almost certainly not read many stories from his original time as Robin. Most of Dick's stories in the 60s involved him and Batman solving mysteries and almost never flipping. That was their thing, like Scooby Do.
    Last edited by Pohzee; 02-21-2019 at 05:12 PM.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9th. View Post
    It's kinda sad we keep having these discussions about Tim.
    It's sad that DC has shoved Tim down our throats--and continues to do so--while far better and more compelling characters like Dick, Jason, and Damian--are denigrated so that Tim can be shown to be superior. It's worse than ever now that The Great God Bendis has appointed himself as Tim's Champion. The whole DC Universe needs a reboot, anyway. I suggest that the Bat-Corner of it ret-con Timmy Wimmy entirely out of canon so that the progression is Dick to Jason to Damian, which would get rid of a lot of useless clutter. Tim Drake's copyright would be given entirely to Bendis and Wonder Comics--all of it taking place of Earth Wonder, Earth Bendis, or whatever--and we'd never have to be bother with Timmy Wimmy again--unless we chose to buy Wonder Comics.

  10. #85
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oasis1313 View Post
    It's sad that DC has shoved Tim down our throats--and continues to do so--while far better and more compelling characters like Dick, Jason, and Damian--are denigrated so that Tim can be shown to be superior. It's worse than ever now that The Great God Bendis has appointed himself as Tim's Champion. The whole DC Universe needs a reboot, anyway. I suggest that the Bat-Corner of it ret-con Timmy Wimmy entirely out of canon so that the progression is Dick to Jason to Damian, which would get rid of a lot of useless clutter. Tim Drake's copyright would be given entirely to Bendis and Wonder Comics--all of it taking place of Earth Wonder, Earth Bendis, or whatever--and we'd never have to be bother with Timmy Wimmy again--unless we chose to buy Wonder Comics.
    And now we have the other extreme....great!.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  11. #86
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Thats how the character was presented. He was good at deducing things. Damian was good at killing people, so was cassandra. Dick was good at flipping around, Jason had a problem with authority.
    That's an oversimplification of all then frankly (including Tim), hell Jason didn't really have problems with authority until wayyyy later, like an arc before he died.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  12. #87
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    Why NOT give Tim's copyright to Bendis? He's the "permanent curator" now, the ultimate comic book writer--don't we want to make him happy so that he will stay at DC and not look at opportunities elsewhere? All the characters in Wonder Comics would belong solely to him, he would be the one to profit off any merchandising or spin-offs. I would call it a retention bonus. It would be very generous of DC to present him with the ownership of Connor, Tim, Bart, and Cassie. By logic, Bendis would be grateful enough to stay on and make them as big as he can.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    No one ever claims that Damian or Jason are among the top assassains as far as killing skill in the DCU like people do with Tim's intellect.
    We were never told Tim is the smartest guy ever. He wasnt even the best of his class. Tim just has a knack for detective work, and was taught by the very best.
    Damian has claimed and be shown to be good at literally everything under the sun except making friends and having any kind of moral compass. He is an expert at manipulating people he seemingly likes.
    Jason as Robin was never really developed beyond the one that came after dick, and later on the one that lasted the least because he had an attitude problem. i know we got some good stories of out the character tho.

    What we are shown is that Tim constantly struggles, going beyond his physical limits to save a life. And watching a 14 years old sick, unable to even walk straight, heading to a faceoff with freeze just because some kids are in danger to be a lot more engaging than literal godly genetics boy unsheat his katana and beat like 100 mooks, then take on the best mercenary in the world and show him up.

    People who reduce Dick to "the flippy Robin" have almost certainly not read many stories from his original time as Robin.
    Most of Dick's stories in the 60s involved him and Batman solving mysteries and almost never flipping.
    Agree, i was just being an asshole. Sorry about that

  14. #89
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oasis1313 View Post
    Why NOT give Tim's copyright to Bendis? He's the "permanent curator" now, the ultimate comic book writer--don't we want to make him happy so that he will stay at DC and not look at opportunities elsewhere? All the characters in Wonder Comics would belong solely to him, he would be the one to profit off any merchandising or spin-offs. I would call it a retention bonus. It would be very generous of DC to present him with the ownership of Connor, Tim, Bart, and Cassie. By logic, Bendis would be grateful enough to stay on and make them as big as he can.
    Because i don't like Bendis and i'm really not excited for his work, is the main reason of why i'm not paying much attention to YJ. Honestly as bad as Dick is having it rigth now, i'm glad that Bendis isn't touching him.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  15. #90
    Mighty Member dropkickjake's Avatar
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    Glad to see we’re at ad hominems now. Internet, never change.

    What are we on now? What moniker Tim should have or whether the character has become the golden god of the DCU?

    End of the day, there should be room for all these characters. Tim. Damian. Jason. Dick. Et c.

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