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  1. #241
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    Not even close. Every one should be a credible threat to everyone else.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The whole point of Jameson is that he's not a villain. He's an embodiment of Peter's guilty conscience.

    He hasn't made Spider-Man's life any worse than Peter did himself. Peter ruined Spider-Man's life the day he let that burglar go, and Jameson running roughshod over him only externalizes his own guilt, that there was a time when he really was every bit the glory-seeking fame-obsessed hack that Jameson keeps accusing him to be. Peter also let his supporting cast live with a time bomb with Norman Osborn being let go and unrevealed by him. He did that even after the relapse in the drug issue. And thanks to that, Gwen Stacy died.

    And in practical terms, all Jameson did was unintentionally help in Scorpion becoming a villain, and also Spider-Slayer, both are fairly minor villains in the scheme of things.



    Spider-Man villains are mostly old dudes or older dudes. There is not one major villain who is the same age or generation as Peter Parker's. Whereas in the case of Batman/Joker, Superman/Lex, Reed/Doom, all of them are the same age or generation. Spider-Man's villains are designed or created to give the sense of the hero being the underdog, so they are shown as more experienced, and adults, and in the early stories the fun was that this teenager was punking these guys and feeding them lunch. Remember Green Goblin's first reaction on learning Peter's identity, more or less, "A kid, I've been fighting a kid". He convinced them he was older than he was. So Spider-Man's rogues are fairly streamlined.

    Spidey villains are generally thugs-with-tech or thugs-with-powers (Electro, Sandman, Rhino, Shocker, Scorpion, Vulture). Or Chameleon who's a mercenary (i.e. international expensive thug), one tragic scientist (Lizard), scientist who become gangsters and thugs (Dr. Octopus), or Green Goblin who's a businessman and scientist. And you have Mysterio, a genius artist who also becomes a thug.



    That leads to the major problem with Spider-Man's villains. In Batman's case, all the villains feel connected to Gotham city, to Arkham Asylum, and a sense of institutional failure and urban decay. You have this sense of the city of Gotham as the main villain which many writers have put across. I am thinking of Neil Gaiman's Riddler story, "When is a man a city?"

    In the case of Spider-Man villains, almost none of them feel like New Yorkers or specifically New York villains. Most of Spider-Man's bad guys are thugs with tech, but the heart of technology in America isn't New York, it's Silicon Valley, or in the East Coast, MIT (Ultimate Shocker who Bendis made into a MIT tragic graduate up to his nose in student loans is one of the few times this was dealt with). New York is the heart of finance, the art world, politics, advertising. And of the lot Norman Osborn makes the most sense as a New York villain. Many have taken to treating him as a Trump analogue (except Osborn has chops as a scientist). Then you have Roderick Kingsley who is this failure of design. He's a fashion designer and merchandise savvy bad guy, and they made him another goblin. Since Spider-Man is a specifically New York hero, unlike FF, X-Men, Dr. Strange, Avengers who may live in the city but they battle threats of global, inter-dimensional, cosmic and mystic threats...that's a problem because his stories follow Peter and his supporting cast who live in a sort-of real sense and then Spider-Man fits there with Jameson, but then he fights Vulture or Sandman and it's suddenly some other genre.

    This comes strongly in Spider-Man PS4 which tries to create a New York sensibility and feeling with Peter, Miles and MJ being "on point". And for the first half, Martin Li/Mr. Negative, FEAST all fit. But then the Sinister Six arrive, and you have Vulture, Rhino, Scorpion, Electro and it feels like a incursion of characters from another setting.
    A couple of points about your rant. 1: Silicon Alley ( NYC) is becoming an Increasingly large technological center ( that is why Google spent $1,000,000,000 on a building there). JJJ spent a lifetime opposing Spider-Man. Why? Because he is jealous. Does it mean Pete did not make mistakes? Yes. OMD and Amazing Fantasy 15 come to mind But it does not let JJJ off the hook. I am the first one to concede that Batman's rogues gallery is the best, but it does not mean that Spidy's suck either ( see Iron Man, Daredevil and Hulk as characters who have a weak baddy list top to bottom).
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  3. #243
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    As far as I have read, the use of any rogue against Spiderman has always served some greater purpose. All the way down to his first one: the mugger that murdered Uncle Ben.

  4. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    As far as I have read, the use of any rogue against Spiderman has always served some greater purpose. All the way down to his first one: the mugger that murdered Uncle Ben.
    As a character, no. The mugger was a one and done rando. It could be any other thug and it would still work. There was nothing intrinsic that the story work with that mugger specifically.

    In general, most Spider-Man villains would be villains with or without Spider-Man. With or without Spider-Man, Dr. Octopus would be Dr. Octopus, Norman would be Goblin, Max Dillon would be Electro, Toomes would be Vulture, Sandman would be Sandman, Connors would be Lizard, Beck would be Mysterio and Kraven would be Kraven.

    Examples of villains who are unintended consequences of Spider-Man's actions are Scorpion (a PI hired by Jameson out of his hatred for Spider-Man later made into a villain), the Spider-Slayer (Smythe's robot concept that Peter unthinkingly convinced Jameson would be a good idea as part of what Peter thought would be a joke), Venom and Carnage, as a result of the symbiote Peter brought back to earth.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    As far as I have read, the use of any rogue against Spiderman has always served some greater purpose. All the way down to his first one: the mugger that murdered Uncle Ben.
    I don't know, seems like it's been a mix of characters that are meant to be foils in one way or another (science accidents and/or power without the responsibility) or just random crooks to create an interesting little story. For something running for decades, it's safe to say that the villains have been all over the map. That said, I do think the main villains seem to lean more to the former.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    As a character, no. The mugger was a one and done rando. It could be any other thug and it would still work. There was nothing intrinsic that the story work with that mugger specifically.
    No, I do not think so. Even another generic mugger would not have done the situation exactly the same way. He was jumpy and maybe a bit incompetent. He stood absolutely no chance against Spiderman. It is entirely possible that any other mugger would not have been surprised into killing Uncle Ben and/or made even the slightest attempt to fight off Spiderman. No, this mugger was in way over his head, as Peter was, and Peter was going to go on being like the mugger until the mugger made the mistake of, more likely than not, accidentally killing Uncle Ben.

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