Do Spider-Man's villains suck?

[Alan2099]

So I think it's fair to see the weak nature of Spider-Man's rogues in USM as Bendis' own judgment on them as characters or villains.

I don't. Bendis as a writer tends to be very narrow minded with what he thinks works and what doesn't. He frequently abandons long standing traditions and characterizations because they don't fit in his story and aren't realistic enough for him. Go back and look through his Ultimate Spider-man's rogue's gallery and see hos many of them are actual costumed supervillains that aren't treated like jokes.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I don't. Bendis as a writer tends to be very narrow minded with what he thinks works and what doesn't. He frequently abandons long standing traditions and characterizations because they don't fit in his story and aren't realistic enough for him. Go back and look through his Ultimate Spider-man's rogue's gallery and see hos many of them are actual costumed supervillains that aren't treated like jokes.

That actually is my point. USM had weak rogues.

Yet at the same time, USM is the most popular and influential and widely liked Spider-man comics of the 21st Century and the one that brought Oscar gold to Marvel.

If those comics did so well despite having a weak rogues gallery that does argue that Spider-Man's strength lies in Peter Parker and his supporting cast rather than the rogues.

[SuperiorIronman]

Alright a thing worth noting is that just because it's being said by Satan doesn't mean its evil. The point of the devil is to separate you from god, goodness, evil, or even wish for you to indulge in things that make you feel good. The temptation is supposed to be tempting to Jesus because it makes complete sense. He can be around to do good for a long while and rule directly over his people performing miracles on a much longer timeline. That's not necessarily a bad thing but that goes against his mission in the first place which is why he denies him.

The Devil isn't meant to be all-encompassing evil, that's crap they teach you in modern Sunday school (and continues to frustrate me when comics use Satanists but I digress). How does that relate to Spider-man villains? Well, Carnage is a shade of gray, just not the common one, he's not 100% evil and he's not Satan because that misses the point of what the Devil is. Carnage is basically an anarchist with a penchant for murder. His whole goal when he causes violence or flees into the country is to destroy or escape leaders. After-all we should note that Cletus's early life wasn't a happy one and his early leaders (parent's, adult crushes) would abuse or mock him. His backstory paints a picture of someone wanting control and seizes it through anarchy. Hypocritical yes, but that's part of what makes him so compelling because that's accomplished through symbiosis. His only peace is through death and by extension how he seizes control and even using said symbiosis to force himself onto others (Carnage USA).

When Peter confronts Carnage, Peter is aware of this paradox where Cletus isn't. Peter sees someone who is a hypocritical monster and thus knows Cletus has to be stopped, but will not kill him and will not give him the mental health treatment he needs or putting him down. What works about that confrontation is that both men come just that close to solving the problem and both don't. Either because Peter can't accept Cletus is damaged or that Cletus can't accept that he wants what he hates.

That's another reason I hate the Red Goblin as much as I do because Red Goblin is the point about both men not seeing eye to eye, but what makes Carnage so compelling is that he is anarchy missing the mark. He becomes what he hates by becoming a leader himself and this self-loathing is lost on Norman Osborn because writers feel the need to be edgy and make him a monster from the word go. The symbiosis works sure, but you can use any symbiote for that and thus Carnage is used because it's a big name.

[Prof. Warren]

Yet at the same time, USM is the most popular and influential and widely liked Spider-man comics of the 21st Century and the one that brought Oscar gold to Marvel.

All credit due to Bendis for USM but it must be said that Dan Slott's ASM run was every bit as popular, influential and widely liked and that run's fingerprints are all over Into the Spider-Verse as well.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

All credit due to Bendis for USM but it must be said that Dan Slott's ASM run was every bit as popular, influential and widely liked and that run's fingerprints are all over Into the Spider-Verse as well.

Dan Slott himself says otherwise. On twitter he said that he doesn't see anything of his Spider-Verse in the movie, aside from the title. Saying his biggest contribution was featuring Spider-Ham in his event, and for getting out of the way when Latour/Rodriquez went rogue on his concept for the character that became Spider-Gwen. It didn't feature any of his characters in that event like Cindy Moon or the Inheritors. Slott was far more impactful on the Spider-Man PS4 game which featured Mr. Negative in a big way.

Of course Bendis has seniority on Slott who started working properly since 2008. USM#1 came out in 2000, and parts of it inspired Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 1 (2001), such as Harry Osborn and Peter going to the same high school and their exploitative and unequal dynamic. The spider being genetically altered. So virtually every movie and cartoon, and games are inspired by Bendis' run. Whether it's the MTV Spider-Man, Weisman's Spectacular Spider-Man (more L-D but also a bit of Bendis there).

[Agent Z]

I find Carnage interesting because he is a Spider-man enemy. If he was a Wolverine, Ironman, or Captain America enemy he wouldn't be nearly as interesting.

What makes him work is that Peter sees the good in everyone. He's willing to give anyone a second chance. At the end of the day, he really doesn't want to hurt anybody. Carnage doesn't have any good in him. At all. He's purely rotten to the core and he absolutely will not stop until you put him down. Seeing a guy like Peter handle a villain that goes against everything he belives in and how far he'll go to have to stop him is what makes Carnage so interesting as a foe for Spider-man.

That, and he has a really sweet look.

Not really. Peter's can be a pretty cynical guy. Not as cynical as Wolverine or the Punisher but he isn't a person who sees the good in everybody. He'll express faith in somebody if they've given him reason to see them as potentially good (Black Cat and Prowler come to mind) but he doesn't see the good in everybody and he certainly doesn't see good in Carnage.

[Prof. Warren]

Dan Slott himself says otherwise. On twitter he said that he doesn't see anything of his Spider-Verse in the movie, aside from the title. Saying his biggest contribution was featuring Spider-Ham in his event, and for getting out of the way when Latour/Rodriquez went rogue on his concept for the character that became Spider-Gwen. It didn't feature any of his characters in that event like Cindy Moon or the Inheritors. Slott was far more impactful on the Spider-Man PS4 game which featured Mr. Negative in a big way.

Dan is being modest, of course.

Into the Spider-Verse doesn't exist without him, just as much as it doesn't exist without Bendis. Period.

Yes, the story is much different than Dan's Spider-Verse but it's obviously not meant as a straight adaptation.

Of course Bendis has seniority on Slott who started working properly since 2008. USM#1 came out in 2000, and parts of it inspired Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 1 (2001), such as Harry Osborn and Peter going to the same high school and their exploitative and unequal dynamic. The spider being genetically altered. So virtually every movie and cartoon, and games are inspired by Bendis' run. Whether it's the MTV Spider-Man, Weisman's Spectacular Spider-Man (more L-D but also a bit of Bendis there).

Raimi's Spider-Man was inspired by Lee/Ditko/Romita Sr.. I would bet that Raimi never looked at USM or even knew it existed. I'd also bet that Raimi incorrectly remembered Harry and Peter as attending high school together. Harry has become such a fixture of the supporting cast, I believe it's common for some to assume he was there earlier than he was. Having the spider be genetically altered just makes sense in a modern story as opposed to its atomic age era origins. That element would make it way into any modern retelling of Spidey's origin irregardless of whether USM ever existed.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Yes, the story is much different than Dan's Spider-Verse but it's obviously not meant as a straight adaptation.

It does adapt quite faithfully a number of stuff from Miles Morales' comics (himself, his dad Jefferson, Rio, Uncle Aaron) as well as beats from Death of Spider-Man, Fallout, and the two Spider-Men crossovers. ITSV is Miles Morales' movie and Miles is Bendis' character and he played a minor part in Slott's Spider-Verse event. The movie is more Bendis than Slott certainly.

Raimi's Spider-Man was inspired by Lee/Ditko/Romita Sr.. I would bet that Raimi never looked at USM or even knew it existed. I'd also bet that Raimi incorrectly remembered Harry and Peter as attending high school together. Harry has become such a fixture of the supporting cast, I believe it's common for some to assume he was there earlier than he was. Having the spider be genetically altered just makes sense in a modern story as opposed to its atomic age era origins. That element would make it way into any modern retelling of Spidey's origin irregardless of whether USM ever existed.

Bear in mind that the movie wasn't entirely and completely Raimi's vision. it had producers and others behind the scenes. The screenplay was written by David Koepp with Scott Rosenberg, Alvin Sergeant (who got credit for the second and third film) making uncredited contributions. The only movie on which Raimi had screenplay credit was...Spider-Man 3 which he co-wrote with his brother. And Bendis alongside others, including Stan Lee of course, was consulted for the film. So if not Raimi, then others could have consulted Bendis directly or seen the first issues of USM. Ultimate Marvel as a whole was often given to producers and others in Hollywood by Marvel executives especially the earliest issues since it was low-continuity, no frills, and fresh and direct.

To be frank, Harry Osborn hurt the trilogy. He's unfortunately the only character in that trilogy who has a complete character arc. And making Harry Osborn the third lead hurt it at the end. So maybe that was something they shouldn't have borrowed from USM if they did at all. Bendis himself had Harry early in the comics but then got bored and mostly dropped him out, save for one big story arc where he's Ultimate Hobgoblin (!) and phased him out by the end of the first series and never revived him again after that.

[David Walton]

Not really. Peter's can be a pretty cynical guy. Not as cynical as Wolverine or the Punisher but he isn't a person who sees the good in everybody. He'll express faith in somebody if they've given him reason to see them as potentially good (Black Cat and Prowler come to mind) but he doesn't see the good in everybody and he certainly doesn't see good in Carnage.

I think that even when Peter is outwardly cynical about a villain, he still turns around and gives them a chance to be something better as soon as the opportunity arises. Alan 2099 is right, Peter doesn't want to hurt anyone. Even his fighting style is more about dodging attacks and restraining villains than punching them. Peter occasionally gets super aggressive when someone he loves is threatened, but calms down quickly. He even regretted beating Stan Carter up after he realized he had caused permanent damage.

[Agent Z]

I think that even when Peter is outwardly cynical about a villain, he still turns around and gives them a chance to be something better as soon as the opportunity arises. Alan 2099 is right, Peter doesn't want to hurt anyone. Even his fighting style is more about dodging attacks and restraining villains than punching them. Peter occasionally gets super aggressive when someone he loves is threatened, but calms down quickly. He even regretted beating Stan Carter up after he realized he had caused permanent damage.

I wasn't disagreeing with the part about him not wanting to hurt people. But that isn't the same as seeing the good in everyone. Like you said, he only really does extend a hand towards the villain after they've proven themselves and even then he's only done very few times. He wasn't even the one who convinced Sandman to go straight. Ben Grimm did that.

[Prof. Warren]

Bear in mind that the movie wasn't entirely and completely Raimi's vision. it had producers and others behind the scenes. The screenplay was written by David Koepp with Scott Rosenberg, Alvin Sergeant (who got credit for the second and third film) making uncredited contributions. The only movie on which Raimi had screenplay credit was...Spider-Man 3 which he co-wrote with his brother. And Bendis alongside others, including Stan Lee of course, was consulted for the film. So if not Raimi, then others could have consulted Bendis directly or seen the first issues of USM. Ultimate Marvel as a whole was often given to producers and others in Hollywood by Marvel executives especially the earliest issues since it was low-continuity, no frills, and fresh and direct.

The Garfield films were very explicitly influenced by USM. The Raimi ones, very minimally at best, if at all.

[David Walton]

I wasn't disagreeing with the part about him not wanting to hurt people. But that isn't the same as seeing the good in everyone. Like you said, he only really does extend a hand towards the villain after they've proven themselves and even then he's only done very few times. He wasn't even the one who convinced Sandman to go straight. Ben Grimm did that.

Ah, got it. Thanks for the clarification.

I do think Peter tends to see the good in everyone, though not always in the moment if they are endangering innocents. But he cools off pretty quickly afterwards. There are very few people he's held a grudge against for a long time.

Just to add an interesting wrinkle to the conversation, Peter actually tends to wrestle a bit more with the idea that Jonah has changed than he ever did with Sandman!

[David Walton]

Bear in mind that the movie wasn't entirely and completely Raimi's vision. it had producers and others behind the scenes. The screenplay was written by David Koepp with Scott Rosenberg, Alvin Sergeant (who got credit for the second and third film) making uncredited contributions. The only movie on which Raimi had screenplay credit was...Spider-Man 3 which he co-wrote with his brother. And Bendis alongside others, including Stan Lee of course, was consulted for the film. So if not Raimi, then others could have consulted Bendis directly or seen the first issues of USM. Ultimate Marvel as a whole was often given to producers and others in Hollywood by Marvel executives especially the earliest issues since it was low-continuity, no frills, and fresh and direct.

I just don't see any USM influence in the Raimi films. In style and execution, they are almost wholly cut from the Lee/Romita Sr. cloth, with plot elements from Gerry Conway as well.

To be frank, Harry Osborn hurt the trilogy. He's unfortunately the only character in that trilogy who has a complete character arc. And making Harry Osborn the third lead hurt it at the end. So maybe that was something they shouldn't have borrowed from USM if they did at all. Bendis himself had Harry early in the comics but then got bored and mostly dropped him out, save for one big story arc where he's Ultimate Hobgoblin (!) and phased him out by the end of the first series and never revived him again after that.

I think the Raimi trilogy is served well by Harry's character. If anything, they should have scaled back on the other villains and used Spectacular Spider-Man 200 by DeMatteis/Buscema as a template. But I still enjoy SM3 and think it closed the trilogy out on a strong note, warts and all. It just didn't attain the heights SM2 did.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I just don't see any USM influence in the Raimi films. In style and execution, they are almost wholly cut from the Lee/Romita Sr. cloth, with plot elements from Gerry Conway as well.

Harry Osborn being Peter's high school friend, and the genetically altered Spider are from USM. They weren't there in earlier drafts. Harry Osborn's personality as a cool rich friend to Peter who's also a little exploitative is also from Ultimate.

In the L-D/R era, Harry and Peter started out as enemies in college before becoming friends, and even then Harry resented Peter many times during their friendship because Peter was the cool one as far as Gwen and MJ were concerned. Then Harry became a drug addict and basket case.

[Bor]

Harry Osborn being Peter's high school friend, and the genetically altered Spider are from USM. They weren't there in earlier drafts. Harry Osborn's personality as a cool rich friend to Peter who's also a little exploitative is also from Ultimate.

In the L-D/R era, Harry and Peter started out as enemies in college before becoming friends, and even then Harry resented Peter many times during their friendship because Peter was the cool one as far as Gwen and MJ were concerned. Then Harry became a drug addict and basket case.

Seems to me like your trying to fit in more USM then is really there. Harry`s character is much more original Lee/Romita/Conway then Bendis. Everything from his relationship with MJ, being roommates with Peter, to his becoming the new Goblin as revenge against Peter for the death of his father is much more ASM then USM. He even ends up dying trying to save/help Peter and redeems himself like that.
I am not saying there is no USM there at all, but not as much as you seem to want to give it credit for.