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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Whatever order you put them in, it's Spider-Man, Batman, Flash and Fantastic Four in the top 4.

    When thinking about the great rogue galleries, people tend to forget that The Fantastic Four has Dr. Doom, Galactus, The Skrulls, The Super Skrull, Annihilus, Psycho-Man, Molecule Man, Hate Monger, Mole Man, The Mad Thinker and his Awesome Android, Puppet Master, Red Ghost and his Super Apes, The Frightful Four, and even Namor could be thought of as a FF villain. That's quite the line-up of heavy hitters. That's a group of villains that, by and large, will wipe the floor with most heroes or teams of heroes.
    We're talking about character depth in terms of villains not their skills or powers.

  2. #47
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    My preference to villains has always been more of Magneto and Bane or Lex Luther. Some rave about spiderman and batman's rogues gallery but most of their villains suffer from cartooness. Sure those were the early description of what comics are. however, it does not hold up today because comics has evolved.

    when I think of villains like green goblin, penguin, mystero, lizard man, mr freeze. I hate to say it but they all sound like bed time story villains in fairy tales to tell to kids. whereas other villains like Magneto, lex luther or Bane just makes you get scared and seem more real. If you watch Spiderman 2002 again, Norman Osborn as an ordinary man was more scary than the Green Goblin in the green suit.



    So does his villains suck? No .

    Are they cliche today? Yes.

    For all the marvel's rogues gallery, I like x-men villains best. Magneto, Juggernaut, Mystique, Craydon Creed, Senator Kelly, Stryker Sentinels. I like them best because they are the most realistic of villains and are not as cartoonish as spiderman villains.many of them are more complex and can go from hero to villain.

    Spiderman may have the best rogues gallery in marvel but x-men has the most interesting villains gallery. How many x-men heroes started off as villains or went from villain to hero. Juggernaut, Mystique, Gambit, Emma Frost, Senator Kelly, Rogue,Magneto.

    Spiderman villains is the usual cat and mouse chase game villains and heroes play but as I said, story in comics evolved from that to something more grey, complex and interesting. We see it with batman villains too like Haley Quinn, Red Hood, Thalia Al Ghul and Catwoman not so much with Spiderman villains, who are one dimensional.
    Last edited by Jeramas; 02-21-2019 at 02:26 AM.

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    One doesn't really need a great rogues gallery to be an interesting hero and character. It's more a question of design and the kind of stories you are telling. Superman doesn't have many good villains and Spider-Man villains are on the whole better than his. Everyone thinks Lex Luthor is a great villain for instance but Dr. Doom is better than him, and Modern Lex is basically a copy of Doom and Kingpin. Superman's most interesting villains are Brainiac, Bizarro, and my favorite Mr. Mxyzsptlk, and of course more recently Darkseid has become a Superman villain. But for a variety of reasons, those characters tend not to be used too much because they take Superman away from his street-level civilian setting and Luthor as a whole fits that main corner of Superman more consistently than these other characters who are best for specific arcs, so that makes Luthor Superman's arch enemy even if on the whole he's not a very well-written character, and certainly never conceived to be the arch enemy. It was what worked best for Superman. Superman's stories aren't about his bad guys, it's about him, his family, his friends, Lois Lane, and his longing for Krypton and navigating and balancing his two identities. Fundamentally, Spider-Man is just like Superman in that regard. His story is not about him and the bad guys.

    Spider-Man has an unique and interesting Rogues Gallery in terms of powers, costumes, and design, but not by personality and depth. They aren't as thematically rich as other villains. Like in Batman, when you do a Scarecrow story you can talk about fears and inner demons, and at least pontificate a bit about psychology. And unlike Spider-Man who doesn't have a single compelling female villain, Batman has many like Poison Ivy, Talia al Ghul, Lady Shiva. The reason Batman's rogues gallery is so much better and interesting is that for the longest time, Batman sucked as a character. People read the comics mostly because the villains were cooler and interesting, and the subtext of Batman has always been that you secretly root for the villains to get one over the spoiled rich kid bore who is the Commissioner's little lapdog. Adam West's BATMAN and Tim Burton's first Batman films are entirely about that. When they made Batman a more complex character, they basically invented the idea that these villains are dark reflections of Batman's personality and Batman is an inch away from becoming as bad if not worse, and that basically meant that Batman's relationships with his rogues is far more important than his relationships and connections with his supporting cast who he mostly treats like s--t.

    That's also true for the Fantastic Four who as many will note are often less interesting than the world-building they are part of. There's no question that Dr. Doom is just more interesting than Reed Richards and even the Fantastic Four put together, but Reed and Doom have the greatest rivalry and Reed being this straight, boring, character is important. He's not the flamboyant, charismatic one. If you try and make Reed interesting as both the mess of the fantastic four movies try and do, you end up destroying the function and dynamic of those characters. Not all heroes and all villains are supposed to be cool tortured ones. Some villains exist just to make the hero look good. Most of Spider-Man's bad guys serve that function. They exist to complicate and mess his life up, to give him some victory or defeat to balance his personal wins/losses, but they aren't interesting by themselves.
    Are you serious? Other than edgelord try hard teenagers who would root for a mass murderer like the Joker over Batman? Someone liking Ledgers Joker more than Bale's Batman for instance isn't the samething as people actively rooting for his Joker to succeed with his evil plans or kill Batman.

    OP, Spider-Man easily has the 2nd most popular villains after Batman, Venom did over $800m at the box office, Suicide Squad which was full of Batman villains did $745m. You can argue the best performances in the Raimi trilogy (along with J.K. Simmons) were Defoe's Goblin and Molina's Doc Ock not Tobey MacGuire's Spider-Man. Same thing with Keaton's Vulture vs Holland's Spider-Man. A lot of people even *gasps* think Batman villains are overrated af, like Agent Z said some people find them to very cookie cutter, generic "Kuwazzy!" cardboard cutouts over being actual characters. Though they might not be as popular characters like Magneto, Dr. Doom, Loki, Lex Luthor and Erik Killmonger are seen as more complex, multi-dimensional characters by some.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    Are you serious? Other than edgelord try hard teenagers who would root for a mass murderer like the Joker over Batman? Someone liking Ledgers Joker more than Bale's Batman for instance isn't the samething as people actively rooting for his Joker to succeed with his evil plans or kill Batman.

    OP, Spider-Man easily has the 2nd most popular villains after Batman, Venom did over $800m at the box office, Suicide Squad which was full of Batman villains did $745m. You can argue the best performances in the Raimi trilogy (along with J.K. Simmons) were Defoe's Goblin and Molina's Doc Ock not Tobey MacGuire's Spider-Man. Same thing with Keaton's Vulture vs Holland's Spider-Man. A lot of people even *gasps* think Batman villains are overrated af, like Agent Z said some people find them to very cookie cutter, generic "Kuwazzy!" cardboard cutouts over being actual characters. Though they might not be as popular characters like Magneto, Dr. Doom, Loki, Lex Luthor and Erik Killmonger are seen as more complex, multi-dimensional characters by some.
    Spiderman has the same batman villains weakness. Call it cartoonish, coooki cutter, generic , Kuwazzy!" cardboard cutouts both rogues gallery were early take of comics portraying villains as comical that does not hold up today, although Erik Killmoger is not multi-dimensional , not from the movie.
    Last edited by Jeramas; 02-21-2019 at 03:09 AM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    When you think of Marvel Comics' greatest villains: Doctor Doom, Galactus, Magneto, Thanos, Kang the Conqueror, Ultron, Red Skull, Loki...none of them are Spider-Man villains.
    Green Goblin/Norman Osborn and Doc Ock definitely have a place within that group, IMO.
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  6. #51
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    To me Spider-Man have the best villains gallery of all super heroes.
    All though i have read way more Spider-Man stories that Batman stories,and Batman have a impressive villains gallery.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    Green Goblin/Norman Osborn and Doc Ock definitely have a place within that group, IMO.
    For killing Gwen Stacy, no doubt , he is one of the greatest.

    Doc Ock for everything great about Spiderman 2.

    Spiderman 2 really toned down the comical cartoonery aspect of Doc Ock. Raimi made him more of a sci-fi villain than a stereotyped comic book villain as he did with green goblin in Spiderman 1

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    We're talking about character depth in terms of villains not their skills or powers.
    The FF's villains are second to none when it comes to depth. Dr. Doom alone is arguably the most complex villain in comics.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    The FF's villains are second to none when it comes to depth. Dr. Doom alone is arguably the most complex villain in comics.
    Doom, I'll give you. The rest is debatable.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    Green Goblin/Norman Osborn and Doc Ock definitely have a place within that group, IMO.
    And let's not forget The Kingpin, who is absolutely a top-tier Marvel villain.

    As much as some associate Fisk with DD, it shouldn't be forgotten that he originated in Spidey's rogue gallery.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Doom, I'll give you. The rest is debatable.
    Complex, tragic figures like Galactus, The Mole Man, Puppet Master, Molecule Man, and Namor?

    Villains who can turn a person's emotions inside out and reveal their deepest fears and hates like Psycho-Man and Hate Monger?

    The FF's villains have no problem when it comes to depth.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Complex, tragic figures like Galactus, The Mole Man, Puppet Master, Molecule Man, and Namor?

    Villains who can turn a person's emotions inside out and reveal their deepest fears and hates like Psycho-Man and Hate Monger?

    The FF's villains have no problem when it comes to depth.
    I've never found Galactus or Namor to be either complex or tragic. You described Hate Monger and Psych man's abilities not their personalities.

  13. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    And let's not forget The Kingpin, who is absolutely a top-tier Marvel villain.

    As much as some associate Fisk with DD, it shouldn't be forgotten that he originated in Spidey's rogue gallery.
    Yes but the Kingpin who originated in Spider-Man's corner wasn't all that interesting until Frank Miller took him to Daredevil and that version of Kingpin is sent back to Spider-Man's corner since then. And Kingpin's last big story in Spider-Man was Back in Black and Read 'Em and Weep both of which involved Peter wiping the floor with him and humiliating him at Poker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeramas View Post
    Doc Ock for everything great about Spiderman 2.

    Spiderman 2 really toned down the comical cartoonery aspect of Doc Ock. Raimi made him more of a sci-fi villain than a stereotyped comic book villain as he did with green goblin in Spiderman 1
    Spider-Man 2's Dr. Octopus is a meat-puppet manipulated by the AI of his arms. That means that whatever he does as Dr. Octopus is not really his fault and agency. That cheapens the character where Dr. Octopus has always been a rational character who acts and behaves with all his faculties. This guy is also an incompetent scientist who dropped the ball on lab safety and got his wife killed and whose experiment was always going to destroy stuff. The only time Dr. Octopus was cool in that movie was when the arms started attacking hospital people, when he went on a rampage, and when he affected natty gangster mannerisms. In other words when he behaved like a cartoon villain in Spider-Man 2.

    The Dr. Octopus in his greatest stories, Master Planner and Owl/Octopus War is a scientist-gangster and is essentially an external threat. Like in Master Planner, the climax is when Peter lifts that machinery. That is his bad guy in that story. The entire internal drama boils down there. After that, Dr. Octopus folds like a b-tch and the rest of the story isn't about him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I've never found Galactus or Namor to be either complex or tragic. You described Hate Monger and Psych man's abilities not their personalities.
    The important thing is that there is a synch between character and personality and that they provide thematic depth to the conflict. As a rule FF's rogues, and Batman's rogues, do that more often than Spider-Man's villains do.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeramas View Post
    For killing Gwen Stacy, no doubt , he is one of the greatest.

    Doc Ock for everything great about Spiderman 2.

    Spiderman 2 really toned down the comical cartoonery aspect of Doc Ock. Raimi made him more of a sci-fi villain than a stereotyped comic book villain as he did with green goblin in Spiderman 1
    Yeah but killing Gwen Stacy happened in the 70's. Sure things spun out of that like Sins Past and American Son, but just because it is a legendary moment in comics doesn't make Green Goblin a great villain nor does it make what came after good either. I'd argue that the only other thing people really gave a damn about with Norman was taking over SHIELD, and yet Green Goblin was barely present in Dark Avengers.

    And on to that point about toning down Green Goblin, Raimi Norman Osborn is probably one of the better versions. I say this because the comics have pretty much forgotten that their is a struggle between Norman and Goblin. He is violent, he can be a killer, but Norman himself is a highly flawed but overall good human. Green Goblin holds roots in Objectivism where there is a clear distinction between right and wrong and that it exists beyond the self. Norman's blackouts are a literal example of this as his mind (or even Norman himself willingly) is trying to deny what he's doing and to some extent even as wrong. Its played goofier in the films but that's due to the Raimi films having origins in comics and having to visually shorthand explain to the audience that Norman is losing his mind.
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  15. #60
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    It’s what writers choose to do with the villains that makes them suck or not. Kravens Last Hunt is a huge example of that.

    So no, his rogues gallery definitely does not suck.

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