Do Spider-Man's villains suck?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Some of the guys you mentioned don't have technology based abilties.

Vulture, Rhino, Scorpion, Mysterio, Dr. Octopus, Chameleon's abilities also come from chemical masks. And Green Goblin is part tech-based, with a glider and pumpkin bombs and razorbats. So that's also tech. If you have six and if you add Goblin, 6 and a Half tech-based villains, then most Spider-Man villains are tech-based villains.

New York is a place where you meet all kinds of people and Spider-Man's enemies reflect that.

Huh. New York is a place where you meet all kinds of people is about actual diversity. Trying to equate that to Spider-Man's rogues is bizarre. New York is a city where you meet diverse people from all nationalities, peoples, cultures and sexuality types. Aside from 3 Russians, most of Spider-Man's villains are white straight dudes with Martin Li/Mr. Negative being a very belated example.

Also, you moved the goal posts since in the original post you sited the "variety" of Batman's villains as a strength which Spider-Man villains lacked. Now it's suddenly a problem for them?

Let me clarify. Batman's villains have people the same age as him, people older than him (Hugo Strange, Penguin, Ra's Al Ghul, Mr. Freeze), women, and you have a proper mix of different types and thematic range. You conveniently missed my point about none of Spider-Man's bad guys being the same age as him. Batman's villains have range and coherence. As crazy as they are they all fit with Gotham City.

In the case of Spider-Man, there's a lack of both range and coherence.

[Mister Mets]

Vulture, Rhino, Scorpion, Mysterio, Dr. Octopus, Chameleon's abilities also come from chemical masks. And Green Goblin is part tech-based, with a glider and pumpkin bombs and razorbats. So that's also tech. If you have six and if you add Goblin, 6 and a Half tech-based villains, then most Spider-Man villains are tech-based villains.



Huh. New York is a place where you meet all kinds of people is about actual diversity. Trying to equate that to Spider-Man's rogues is bizarre. New York is a city where you meet diverse people from all nationalities, peoples, cultures and sexuality types. Aside from 3 Russians, most of Spider-Man's villains are white straight dudes with Martin Li/Mr. Negative being a very belated example.



Let me clarify. Batman's villains have people the same age as him, people older than him (Hugo Strange, Penguin, Ra's Al Ghul, Mr. Freeze), women, and you have a proper mix of different types and thematic range. You conveniently missed my point about none of Spider-Man's bad guys being the same age as him. Batman's villains have range and coherence. As crazy as they are they all fit with Gotham City.

In the case of Spider-Man, there's a lack of both range and coherence.

Clash and Harry Osborn are the same age as Peter.

I think the point on the villains being white guys is more due to the staying power of the original bad guys created in the 60s.

[Armor of God]

There is no thematic variety or depth in Batman villains. Most of them are just varying levels of comic book "insane". Spider-Man villains have a variety of motivations from greed to misanthropy to revenge to despair. Also if we're going to discount Kingpin as a Spider-Man villain then I think it is only fair to discount Lady Shiva as a Batman villain given she wasn't created to be a Batman villain and her best stories are with Cass Cain, the Birds of Prey, Richard Dragon and the Question. Catwoman barely qualifies as a villain and Talia is just discount Catwoman. Poison Ivy might come close but she's far too inconsistent with how she's written.

Even if Spider-Man villains aren't considered the best of the archtype they belong in, they are still adored and beloved by many. You seem to be under the impression that they aren't as liked as Batman villains (there's no proof that they aren't) and therefore this makes them weak rogues.

Yeah and we dont have to swing to the other extreme either friend, Spider-Man villains dont suck but that statement of yours about Bat villains is just false. Thematic variety is pretty much Batman villains bread and butter, depth is ultimately up to perception. Some people find to Joker to have the most depth, others dont. Discounting Shiva isn't really going to make a dent in Batman villains and the most well known stories Shiva has been part of are Hush, Death in the Family and Knightsend certainly not Richard Dragon who hasn't existed since forever or even Sage who only has a cult following at this point. Even with Cass she only has 2 real stories, one which took place in Batman's book recently. I'd even argue for Tim Drake Robin having a greater claim and more defined history with Shiva than anyone.

Talia is also not a discount Catwoman, what a ridiculous statement, regardless of what one feels about Morrison's characterization he made her a big time villain and both Abnett as well as Bendis are continuing that. This year is marked by DC as the year of the villain and the biggest villains to get a spotlight will be Bane, Talia, Batman who Laughs, Joker & Legion of Doom (of which Joker is again a member), says a lot.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Clash and Harry Osborn are the same age as Peter.

Is Harry Osborn part of Spider-Man's regular recurring rogues gallery? No. Has anyone actually considered Jameson a villain and part of Spider-Man's rogues? No. So neither count.

Harry Osborn's biggest story as a villain, Best of Enemies is about him being a self-destructive tragic friend in a depressive spiral and not really a villain, considering he dies at the end. And his biggest jerk move as a villain, the Robotparents thing, was posthumous (shades of Ned Leeds) and not considered a good story.

Clash is another recent exception and still early days to say, and he's ultra-obscure. It doesn't disprove or invalidate my point that most of Spider-Man's rogues and his classic are older men.

I think the point on the villains being white guys is more due to the staying power of the original bad guys created in the 60s.

I don't have a problem with the villains being white, I have a problem with it being used or explained as "New York is diverse".

I like the fact that in Spider-Man, you have African-American characters like Robbie Robertson and Hobie Brown who are shown as genuine decent people with Hobie Brown being a criminal who reformed and stayed reformed. A fact that Bendis respected by making Ultimate Prowler a different character, Aaron Davis, rather than Ultimate Hobie.

But in any case my point is that these villains lack range and coherence. There's not a lot of consistency in characterization, theme, costume, powers, and neither of them fit the setting of New York.

[Agent Z]

Vulture, Rhino, Scorpion, Mysterio, Dr. Octopus, Chameleon's abilities also come from chemical masks. And Green Goblin is part tech-based, with a glider and pumpkin bombs and razorbats. So that's also tech. If you have six and if you add Goblin, 6 and a Half tech-based villains, then most Spider-Man villains are tech-based villains.

Rhino's powers don't come from his suit. Let's also add in Electro, Mr Negative, Hydro-Man, Sandman, Vermin, Venom, Kraven, Carnage, Molten Man, Jackal, Will O' The Wisp, Human Fly, Morbuis, Morlurn, Mr Negative, Overdrive, Lizard and others and you have as much if not more super powered enemies.

Huh. New York is a place where you meet all kinds of people is about actual diversity. Trying to equate that to Spider-Man's rogues is bizarre. New York is a city where you meet diverse people from all nationalities, peoples, cultures and sexuality types. Aside from 3 Russians, most of Spider-Man's villains are white straight dudes with Martin Li/Mr. Negative being a very belated example.

All kinds of people also refers to people of different walks of life. But even then, Black Cat and Electro have been written as bisexual and Tombstone is an African American albino. There's also the original Tarantula, Anton Miguel Rodriguez and Calypso, A Haitian woman. Puma is Native American.

Let me clarify. Batman's villains have people the same age as him, people older than him (Hugo Strange, Penguin, Ra's Al Ghul, Mr. Freeze), women, and you have a proper mix of different types and thematic range. You conveniently missed my point about none of Spider-Man's bad guys being the same age as him.

That isn't true. Black Cat and Puma were within Peter's age range. As was Harry Osborn, the second Green Goblin. There is also Alpha who is younger than Peter. Eddie Brock is also around the same age as Peter or at least not that much older than him

Batman's villains have range and coherence. As crazy as they are they all fit with Gotham City.

In the case of Spider-Man, there's a lack of both range and coherence.

They're coherent in that they're all caricatures of mental illness. As for range, Well, see the sentence preceding this one.

Spider-Man's villains come from different backgrounds but one thing they all have in common is the misuse of great power for selfish ends . Which is pretty appropriate for a guy all about responsibility.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Rhino's powers don't come from his suit.

It comes from a procedure that grafted the suit to his body. He doesn't have natural superpowers and his body was grafted with tech permanently. So it comes from technology.

All kinds of people also refers to people of different walks of life. But even then, Black Cat and Electro have been written as bisexual and Tombstone is an African American albino.

Black Cat has been far more consistently heterosexual and bi-curious hints from writers means nothing compared to actual bisexuality as in the case of Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy. Although you do highlight the fact that Spider-Man's supporting characters are all straight despite being New Yorkers in media and academia, and live in a city during periods important to LGBT History. I mean ESU is in Greenwich Village which historically was a major gay district.

Electro's bisexuality similarly comes and goes.

There's also the original Tarantula, Anton Miguel Rodriguez

He's also not American, being an agent to a foreign government of Delvadia who persecutes immigrants and refugees in New York. So he's not a New Yorker. And that doesn't disprove or contradict my point about Spider-man's villains not being New Yorkers since as an immigrant and refugee hunting killer for a dictatorship, Tarantula is an anti-New York villain.

I will grant you Tombstone though.

In either case you are listing minor figures in Spider-Man's rogues. Not the representative top. This doesn't disprove the issue about Spider-Man's rogues being weaker than others.

That isn't true. Black Cat and Puma were within Peter's age range. As was Harry Osborn, the second Green Goblin. There is also Alpha who is younger than Peter. Eddie Brock is also around the same age as Peter or at least not that much older than him

As I said above, Harry Osborn isn't a recurring villain. Eddie Brock is older than Peter in stories that I read. It's only Spider-Man 3 with Topher Grace that shows them the same age. I will grant you Felicia Hardy and Black Cat however even if she's also a supporting character for the longest time but that's true of Catwoman too.

[Armor of God]

You talk about mental illness Agent Z but you completely overlook the fact the biggest and most well known Bat villains are:

Joker
Riddler
Penguin
Two-Face
Catwoman
Scarecrow
Bane
Ra's al Ghul
Mr Freeze
Poison Ivy

of these literally only Two-Face and Joker are presented as having mental illness, arguably Riddler, maybe Scarecrow(but he can be seen as insane as your typical mad scientist archetype) and thats it. Even if you extend this list further you get Black Mask, Court of Owls, Killer Croc and Hush who aren't mentally ill either,Clayface has more than half a dozen versions and only one named Preston Payne whom barely anyone would recognize as Clayface had mental illness. Really after Joker and Dent the biggest mentally ill guys are Ventriloquist, Zsasz, Mad Hatter and Pyg and frankly I dont find anything about them representing a 60's mindset considering that Zsasz, Pyg and Wesker were created from the 90's and onwards, even Payne is a late 70's creation. So I honestly I dont get where you're coming from when you talk about a 60's mindset and Batman villains largely being poor examples of mental illness.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

...

And in any case, Batman as the great detective is supposed to get into the psychology of his villains. So going into whatever mental issues they have is part of the density of those characters.

Whereas Spider-Man's villains in most cases can't be said to have any psychology to them. Green Goblin is the exception, and also Kraven in KLH.

[Agent Z]

You talk about mental illness Agent Z but you completely overlook the fact the biggest and most well known Bat villains are:

Joker
Riddler
Penguin
Two-Face's
Catwoman
Joker
Bane
Ra's al Ghul
Mr Freeze
Poison Ivy

of these literally only Two-Face and Joker are presented as having mental illness, arguably Riddler but thats it. Even if you extend this list further you get Black Mask, Court of Owls, Killer Croc and Hush who aren't mentally ill either,Clayface has more than half a dozen versions and only one named Preston Payne whom barely anyone would recognize as Clayface had mental illness. Really after Joker and Dent the biggest mentally ill guys are Ventriloquist, Zsasz, Mad Hatter and Pyg and frankly I dont find anything about them representing a 60's mindset considering that Zsasz, Pyg and Wesker were created from the 90's and onwards, even Payne is a late 70's creation.

Most of these guys have either been referred to as being mentally ill or confined to Arkham a mental health facility. When I say they reflect a 60s understanding of mental illness, I'm referring to how writers portray mentally ill people as always being violent and murderous. They may not have been created in the 60s but they sure are written that way. Hell, Pyg was created by a writer who's a silver Age enthusiast.

And in any case, Batman as the great detective is supposed to get into the psychology of his villains. So going into whatever mental issues they have is part of the density of those characters.

Whereas Spider-Man's villains in most cases can't be said to have any psychology to them. Green Goblin is the exception, and also Kraven in KLH.

No, what they don't have is misinterpretations of mental unwellness. Plenty of detective stories aren't about the culprit's psychology.

It comes from a procedure that grafted the suit to his body. He doesn't have natural superpowers and his body was grafted with tech permanently. So it comes from technology.

The powers don’t come from the suit. It was grafted onto his skin but the treatments gave him a superhuman physiology.

Black Cat has been far more consistently heterosexual and bi-curious hints from writers means nothing compared to actual bisexuality as in the case of Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy. Although you do highlight the fact that Spider-Man's supporting characters are all straight despite being New Yorkers in media and academia, and live in a city during periods important to LGBT History. I mean ESU is in Greenwich Village which historically was a major gay district.

Electro's bisexuality similarly comes and goes.



He's also not American, being an agent to a foreign government of Delvadia who persecutes immigrants and refugees in New York. So he's not a New Yorker. And that doesn't disprove or contradict my point about Spider-man's villains not being New Yorkers since as an immigrant and refugee hunting killer for a dictatorship, Tarantula is an anti-New York villain.

I said New York was a place where you meet people of all kinds. I didn’t say those people were born in New York or even that they had to be progressive (it isn’t like there aren’t racists or homophobes in New York).

In either case you are listing minor figures in Spider-Man's rogues. Not the representative top. This doesn't disprove the issue about Spider-Man's rogues being weaker than others.

The thread is about Spider-Man’s rogues which means all rogues are counted no matter how minor they may be.

[Armor of God]

Most of these guys have either been referred to as being mentally ill or confined to Arkham a mental health facility. When I say they reflect a 60s understanding of mental illness, I'm referring to how writers portray mentally ill people as always being violent and murderous.

Arkham is a holding facility for meta humans and I literally showed you how the overwhelming majority are not not mentally ill nor do they pretend to be (usually). Ofcourse if you saw someone murder another person or perform other acts of deviant behavior you'd call them crazy in a heart beat, doesn't mean they've been officially diagnosed.

And I'm sorry but there is nothing Silver Age about Pyg, so Morrison's fondness for an era is ultimately meaningless, if you want Pyg viewed through a silver age lens then watch Beware the Batman cartoon. Had someone like Pyg been created in the Silver Age comics would have ceased to exist, Wertham would've had a field day.

[Agent Z]

Arkham is a holding facility for meta humans and I literally showed you how the overwhelming majority are not not mentally ill nor do they pretend to be (usually). Ofcourse if you saw someone murder another person or perform other acts of deviant behavior you'd call them crazy in a heart beat, doesn't mean they've been officially diagnosed.

DC has produced multiple stories depicting the rogues as mentally ill with diagnoses from doctors. Most of the criminals held in Arkham aren't metahumans either. We've seen multiple instances of doctors trying to treat the rogues and writing files on their psyches. I agree they don't fit any actual depiction of mental illness but that is how the writing tries to pass them off as. Bane's reason for coming to Gotham in the first place was because of a childhood fear of bats.

[Armor of God]

DC has produced multiple stories depicting the rogues as mentally ill with diagnoses from doctors. Most of the criminals held in Arkham aren't metahumans either. We've seen multiple instances of doctors trying to treat the rogues and writing files on their psyches. I agree they don't fit any actual depiction of mental illness but that is how the writing tries to pass them off as. Bane's reason for coming to Gotham in the first place was because of a childhood fear of bats.

Those are just villain files to help you understand their psychology and motivations, Bane only recently got diagnosed in King's run and that was blamed on blunt head trauma and even that was just a major ruse and even then Bane was diagnosed as being completely harmless which contradicts your notion of Batman comics depicting mentally ill people as violent. As you can see from Bane's case he was presented as harmless when he was a mental patient, albeit a fake one which once again was pointed out.

[Armor of God]

But ultimately this is a Spider-Man thread and I dont wish to continue this discussion anymore.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Most of these guys have either been referred to as being mentally ill or confined to Arkham a mental health facility. When I say they reflect a 60s understanding of mental illness, I'm referring to how writers portray mentally ill people as always being violent and murderous. They may not have been created in the 60s but they sure are written that way. Hell, Pyg was created by a writer who's a silver Age enthusiast.

I guess I am going to continue to be that guy. Arkham Asylum was created in the 70s and not the 60s. Batman's villains being mentally ill came in the 70s. For most of the 60s, Batman's villains were the usual Dick Sprang giant props fellows. Joker didn't start killing again until The Joker's Five Way Revenge in 1972, just a few months after The Night Gwen Stacy Died.

Plenty of detective stories aren't about the culprit's psychology.

Detective stories are about motives, actions, behaviors, identifying and tracing actions, and movement. All of that is psychology. That's true since Sherlock Holmes none of which feature mentally ill villains. There's more to psychology than actual diagnoses or misdiagnoses mental illness.

Spider-Man doesn't investigate or track crime scenes and so on. He comes in the middle of action. He is in metaphorical terms a "first responder" similar to Superman. Batman is a detective. Daredevil is a lawyer, so there's more emphasis on psychology in their stories about villains and characters. Whereas Superman and Spider-man is about the main characters and supporting cast.

The thread is about Spider-Man’s rogues which means all rogues are counted no matter how minor they may be.

If it's about where Spider-Man's rogues fit in hierarchies and involves value judgments then that means you need to use the best villains and most recurring ones. Based on that I point out they're older men, and they are tech-based, and the response to that is to poke holes and shift focus to characters who don't qualify for the discussion.

Like Jameson is now considered a villain which is ridiculous. Then Harry Osborn who for the majority of stories is a supporting cast member and not a villain, and he was widely considered a poor successor to the Goblin to the point he was immediately replaced by other candidates (Bart Hamilton) until the Hobgoblin. And then his father came back anyway. Harry Osborn's best stories are with JMD leading to Best of Enemies and those were about him being a tragic self-destructive friend rather than a villain. And he dies at the end.

[Vegeta]

It comes from a procedure that grafted the suit to his body. He doesn't have natural superpowers and his body was grafted with tech permanently. So it comes from technology.

Rhino's superhuman strength was granted through chemicals and radiation (and later additional gamma rays) he is no more a "tech based" hero than the Hulk. A character needs to rely on some form of electronic gadgetry to be considered a tech based character. His armor is not much more than a really thick hide, it doesn't grant him any abilities other than protection.