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  1. #16
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Well, I think most plot devices are fair game up to and including something as serious as rape, provided that it's treated in a manner that's not contrived and actually deals with the issue.

    That's not what happened with IC. For one, the rape was a retcon meaning that it was never actually dealt with or handled. We're to believe this awful thing happened to Sue and neither she nor Ralph mentioned once in years.

    Second, the rape had actually nothing to do with Sue's murder or the motives behind it, making its purpose more or less shock value. I think the story could have been altered in a manner to still get the point across without the senseless rape of a female character who was also killed off in the same story.
    Yeah, that's what made the rape all the more exploitative.
    That, and how the scene was stretched for two pages while a narrator that wasn't there when it happened relayed the story.

    A story that was just then being brought to light, with Sue never before having shown any indication that it could have ever happened previously.
    Something like that isn't just forgotten about. So it's kinda forced to interject it into a character's past. Especially when you simultaneously kill off the character so there's no further exploration of how she dealt with it to get back to being the fun-loving Sue we all knew by the time JLDetroit rolled around.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  2. #17
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    Hated it - for the following reasons:

    1) Justice League of America was my very favorite comic growing up. This book put a bad stain on their legacy IMO. Sure the members had moments of not getting along (Green Arrow and Hawkman for sure), but never to the extreme that this story pushed upon them. Randomly mind-wiping villains to protect their identities is one thing, but using it on each other was hard for this reader to swallow.

    2) Having Sue Dibny both raped and now murdered was just too much since I'm a fan of the character. It was completely unnecessary.

    3) There was nothing that Jean Loring did - that I could see - that would have prevented all these heroes and detectives from figuring out 'the mystery' in ten minutes.

    4) The complete lameness of Loring's reason for committing these crimes - 'you weren't paying enough attention to me'.

    5) It was the beginning of the 'wouldn't it be cool' mentality that DC Comics would jump on for over a decade when telling stories. Characterization is thrown out the window. History is constantly being rewritten (or ignored completely). Looking beyond the actual story as to how it will affect characters down the road is an afterthought (if that!!!!). Let's just shock everybody to sell books and then when it blows up in our face, we'll just wipe out this timeline and start all over again.

  3. #18
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    if only jean had used the phone to call ray instead of the purpose she put it to use.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Well, I agree with your critique but it's hard to argue it's importance in DC lore or its immediate impact on the DCU, which was felt for up until N52.
    I know. That's what I said. Heck it's still affecting us today with Didio claiming things like HiC are spiritual successors to Identity Crisis.

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Batman certainly has principles but he's not Rorschach. He's bent his own rules and has gone to extremes to defeat an adversary. He certainly doesn't strike me as someone who would be vehemently opposed to mind wiping someone who just raped a colleague. Batman has one code, which is that he doesn't kill. Outside of that he hasn't shown to be opposed to much else.
    Every time he clashes with the rest of the league, like Tower of Babel or OMAC, it's because he's highly skeptical of metahumans and the danger of overstepping their bounds. I don't think it's unreasonable for him to oppose that kind of invasive decision-making at all. He could lobotomize the Joker, he could cripple him, etc but he doesn't do that either. I don't see Bruce as a mind-wiper.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    Every time he clashes with the rest of the league, like Tower of Babel or OMAC, it's because he's highly skeptical of metahumans and the danger of overstepping their bounds. I don't think it's unreasonable for him to oppose that kind of invasive decision-making at all. He could lobotomize the Joker, he could cripple him, etc but he doesn't do that either. I don't see Bruce as a mind-wiper.
    Bruce only has an issue with overstepping bounds when it is other superheroes doing it. The man has repeatedly been shown there is no law, no jurisdiction, privacy he won't disregard if it suits him. Bare in mind that his response to learning of the mind wipes wasn't to blow the whistle on the culprits but rather to create a global spy computer to monitor every metahuman on Earth. Which ended up blowing up in his face like every other attempt to single handedly police the superhero community.

    Also, Bruce didn't have an issue with mind wipes when the Martian Manhunter used them on the White Martians to make them think they were human.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    Yeah, that's what made the rape all the more exploitative.
    That, and how the scene was stretched for two pages while a narrator that wasn't there when it happened relayed the story.

    A story that was just then being brought to light, with Sue never before having shown any indication that it could have ever happened previously.
    Something like that isn't just forgotten about. So it's kinda forced to interject it into a character's past. Especially when you simultaneously kill off the character so there's no further exploration of how she dealt with it to get back to being the fun-loving Sue we all knew by the time JLDetroit rolled around.
    Also, didn't Sue at one point work with Kimiyo Hoshi, the female Dr Light? That means at one point she served on a team with a woman who has the moniker, powers and costume of her rapist.

  7. #22
    Mighty Member Kaijudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Also, didn't Sue at one point work with Kimiyo Hoshi, the female Dr Light? That means at one point she served on a team with a woman who has the moniker, powers and costume of her rapist.
    Yes, during the post-Giffen JLE run, when Dr. Light and Tasmanian Devil joined the team full time. And maybe even again during Arcudi's Doom Patrol run, when Kimiyo and Ralph were on a replacement Doom Patrol team.

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Bruce only has an issue with overstepping bounds when it is other superheroes doing it. The man has repeatedly been shown there is no law, no jurisdiction, privacy he won't disregard if it suits him. Bare in mind that his response to learning of the mind wipes wasn't to blow the whistle on the culprits but rather to create a global spy computer to monitor every metahuman on Earth. Which ended up blowing up in his face like every other attempt to single handedly police the superhero community.

    Also, Bruce didn't have an issue with mind wipes when the Martian Manhunter used them on the White Martians to make them think they were human.
    I can agree with you there, although that exception he applies to himself doesn't invalidate his decision in IC, where it's the League collectively making the decision.

    Good point on the White Martians, but I think them being non-humans does make a different.

  9. #24
    Mighty Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    Still saddened they killed Jack Drake. A big part of the Robin series was Tim's dual life and his building a relationship with his Dad.
    Pulls: Batman, Detective Comics, SiKtC, Catwoman, Nightwing, Titans, Godzilla, Wonder Woman, Batman & Robin, Brave and the Bold, No/One, Kill your Darlings, and Deviant.
    My runs: Batman #230-, and Detective #420-

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by theoneandonly View Post
    if only jean had used the phone to call ray instead of the purpose she put it to use.
    Call a Ray who she knew wanted her back.

  11. #26
    Spectacular Member Micael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    I just feel like the Batman I know would jump at the chance to alter the Joker's personality to make him a buffoon versus an effective murdering psychopath.

    I disagree, Batman would never be in favor of messing with someone's mind. What they did to Doctor Light was wrong and they knew it.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I disagree, Batman would never be in favor of messing with someone's mind. What they did to Doctor Light was wrong and they knew it.
    What was more wrong about it versus say, heavily medicating a psychopath at Arkham or putting a dangerous criminal in the Phantom Zone?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I disagree, Batman would never be in favor of messing with someone's mind. What they did to Doctor Light was wrong and they knew it.
    Batman has no rule against altering peoples' minds. Lest we forget JLA with Terror Incognita or basically any time he asks Martian Manhunter to offensively use telepathy (or doesn't oppose it). Or, hell, using Psycho Pirate's mask recently (which is magic, so even if that is arbitrarily your cutoff point it doesn't hold off).

    That's not to say he'd vote in favor of what happened in the awful, awful story that was Identity Crisis, but he doesn't fundamentally oppose it on a foundational level like he does killing.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Batman would be for the mind-wipe. A general distrust of metahumans does not equate to him being against permanently preventing a psychopath from killing or seriously injuring another person provided it doesn't kill them, which is his only established code.

    I would also ask, what exactly did Batman think happened when the Secret Society of Villains discovered his identity, but then suddenly forgot it upon their next encounter and/or never used it against him?

  15. #30
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Batman would be for the mind-wipe.
    This is just so conclusive a statement. If Batman doesn't have a rule against it, there's certainly not a precedent for him to be for it. There are a variety of ways he could permanently alter the brain functions of his many mentally disturbed patients, and he doesn't go to those lengths.

    Plus, if I remember right, Batman stumbles onto the process, unsure of what's going on, but obviously able to tell that it isn't a normal procedure. And as Ollie described, they didn't just erase his memory, they "cleaned him up". I may be wrong on some of those details but I think they matter and factor into Batman's reaction.

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