Identity Crisis: 15 Years Later (Spoilers)

[Dred]

This is just so conclusive a statement. If Batman doesn't have a rule against it, there's certainly not a precedent for him to be for it. There are a variety of ways he could permanently alter the brain functions of his many mentally disturbed patients, and he doesn't go to those lengths.

Plus, if I remember right, Batman stumbles onto the process, unsure of what's going on, but obviously able to tell that it isn't a normal procedure. And as Ollie described, they didn't just erase his memory, they "cleaned him up". I may be wrong on some of those details but I think they matter and factor into Batman's reaction.

Batman has been involved in situations in which people had their psyches forcibly altered for the supposed greater good and posted no protest. He has even done it himself in King's run with Psycho Pirate's mask, though this is obviously after Identity Crisis rather than before so I suppose it wasn't precedent at the time. Mentally altering someone hasn't even been something I've seen him struggle or deliberate on outside of Identity Crisis.

You can't really use the idea that he's against someone because if he was for it he could deal with his villains permanently as an idea. That opens up a can of worms and the actual answer is "gotta reuse villains."

[kingaliencracker]

This is just so conclusive a statement. If Batman doesn't have a rule against it, there's certainly not a precedent for him to be for it. There are a variety of ways he could permanently alter the brain functions of his many mentally disturbed patients, and he doesn't go to those lengths.

Plus, if I remember right, Batman stumbles onto the process, unsure of what's going on, but obviously able to tell that it isn't a normal procedure. And as Ollie described, they didn't just erase his memory, they "cleaned him up". I may be wrong on some of those details but I think they matter and factor into Batman's reaction.

Well, we saw Batman break Joker's neck to permanently disable him in DKR. Now, that's non-canon but it's generally accepted as one of the defining interpretations of the character.

I've been following & reading Batman for 30 years. I'm not saying that makes me an expert on the character more than the next fan. But what I am saying is that in that time and in the hundreds upon hundreds of Batman comics I've read in those years, I've seen Batman have ONE rule, and that's no killing. Outside of that he doesn't have a firm set of principles that have consistently been adhered to. Outside of not killing, Batman has generally been shown to be a "whatever gets the job done" kind of hero.

Now, we never really dealt with mind-wiping before outside of the White Martians, which he was clearly for. But I also don't think altering Doctor Light to make him less violent and less effective is morally reprehensible the way they depicted Batman acting. It actually makes perfect sense when you have super powered beings who would use their powers for heinous acts, especially if you're opposed to killing them as most super heroes are. That's what makes introducing it somewhat stupid in hindsight, and some of the heroes' reaction to it even more stupid.

HAVING SAID ALL THAT, even if Batman were against the mind-wiping, I still don't feel he would have reacted the way he did, especially given that we're talking about everything occurring minutes after Sue was raped. He may have voiced his opinion. He may have quit the league if they still voted for it. But he wouldn't have reacted as aggressively as depicted in Identity Crisis.

[phantom1592]

I disagree, Batman would never be in favor of messing with someone's mind. What they did to Doctor Light was wrong and they knew it.

I just saw in a Batman that Laughs book that Wayne enterprise fast tracked a 'You're not a psychopath' pill that they have James Jr. on. Batman is fine with that... until he decided he needed 'crazy James' back... but he wasn't quite in his own mind at THAT time...

But yeah, 'You can't be evil anymore' is exactly what his goal has always been, and Batman is all about using whatever tools he possibly can to do it.

Also... wasn't at least a few of his Tower of Babel 'Contingencies' involving hypnotic suggestions to take down his own team? Kyle went Blind, Aquaman afraid of water or something?

[kingaliencracker]

And let me tell you MORE about how ridiculous the mind-wipe plot device was...

Even if Batman was so aggressive that he would have tried to stop the leaguers from mind-wiping Doctor Light, so what? You had Hawkman, Flash, and Green Lantern all there. Even if Batman wanted to, he couldn't stop it and the leaguers could have just locked him in a room or transported him off the Satellite until it was done. There was absolutely no need to mind-wipe him.

FURTHER...

There was clearly a disagreement among what to do with Doctor Light, with Hal, Ollie, and Dinah voting against the mind-wiping, while the others voted for it. Yet Batman shows up - WHO IS A LEAGUE MEMBER - clearly against it, and none of the three who voted against the mind-wipe thought "hey, the vote's even now, so let's call Clark to settle it"?

The whole setup and execution is just so contrived and silly to me.

[kingaliencracker]

I just saw in a Batman that Laughs book that Wayne enterprise fast tracked a 'You're not a psychopath' pill that they have James Jr. on. Batman is fine with that... until he decided he needed 'crazy James' back... but he wasn't quite in his own mind at THAT time...

But yeah, 'You can't be evil anymore' is exactly what his goal has always been, and Batman is all about using whatever tools he possibly can to do it.

Also... wasn't at least a few of his Tower of Babel 'Contingencies' involving hypnotic suggestions to take down his own team? Kyle went Blind, Aquaman afraid of water or something?

I've worked in the Criminal Justice field for 16 years now. The system forces people to take mind and personality-altering drugs all the time to keep them stable and non-violent.

Maybe that's why I don't find the mind-wiping of Doctor Light to be as big of a deal as Meltzer tries to make to seem, and why I don't feel Batman would be as vehemently opposed to it as he was depicted in the story.

[Agent Z]

I've worked in the Criminal Justice field for 16 years now. The system forces people to take mind and personality-altering drugs all the time to keep them stable and non-violent.

Maybe that's why I don't find the mind-wiping of Doctor Light to be as big of a deal as Meltzer tries to make to seem, and why I don't feel Batman would be as vehemently opposed to it as he was depicted in the story.

The problem is that what Zatanna did to Light didn't make him stable and non-violent. It just made him incompetent at being a villain and made him forget he liked raping women.

Also, forced medicating of people has been a topic of controversy for some time now.

[kingaliencracker]

The problem is that what Zatanna did to Light didn't make him stable and non-violent. It just made him incompetent at being a villain and made him forget he liked raping women.

Also, forced medicating of people has been a topic of controversy for some time now.

Controversial to who? The alternative is you lock people up in an 8x8 cell for all but 3 hours a week. Or we go back to the asylum days.

The world isn't sunshine and rainbows. There are people who absolutley cannot function in society without help (i.e. medication). It's very unfortunate but it's a reality of life.

[Yoda]

And let me tell you MORE about how ridiculous the mind-wipe plot device was...

Even if Batman was so aggressive that he would have tried to stop the leaguers from mind-wiping Doctor Light, so what? You had Hawkman, Flash, and Green Lantern all there. Even if Batman wanted to, he couldn't stop it and the leaguers could have just locked him in a room or transported him off the Satellite until it was done. There was absolutely no need to mind-wipe him.

FURTHER...

There was clearly a disagreement among what to do with Doctor Light, with Hal, Ollie, and Dinah voting against the mind-wiping, while the others voted for it. Yet Batman shows up - WHO IS A LEAGUE MEMBER - clearly against it, and none of the three who voted against the mind-wipe thought "hey, the vote's even now, so let's call Clark to settle it"?

The whole setup and execution is just so contrived and silly to me.

I think it’s even worse that Metzler implied Superman was aware of all the shady acts but pretends not to know so he doesn’t have to get his hands dirty.

[theoneandonly]

Batman's go to method of intimidating criminals and the like is to threaten to and in some cases actually cripple them. it would be more painless if a brain reprogramming could be carried out without any ill effects but the equipment/power would fall in wrong hands or misused as was evident in the squadron supreme arc where they take over the world. guess mind wiping is out unless the Martian manhunter does it like he did with Prometheus with full consent of Batman.

[Agent Z]

Controversial to who? The alternative is you lock people up in an 8x8 cell for all but 3 hours a week. Or we go back to the asylum days.

The world isn't sunshine and rainbows. There are people who absolutley cannot function in society without help (i.e. medication). It's very unfortunate but it's a reality of life.

I'll concede to this but I'd argue that what the League did to Light is comparable to medicating people. It wasn't done with permission of the law, it was done in secret and the recepient wasn't mentally ill to justify this action. The League just did it because they didn't want Sue's rape getting out. They robbed Sue of a chance to get justice because they didn't want people to know a civilian got raped in the League's base.

[phonogram12]

I can agree with you there, although that exception he applies to himself doesn't invalidate his decision in IC, where it's the League collectively making the decision.

Good point on the White Martians, but I think them being non-humans does make a different.

And like Superman said at the end of that first Morrison arc, he really wasn't sure anyone else was more qualified to pass judgement on them than J'Onn was.

This is just so conclusive a statement. If Batman doesn't have a rule against it, there's certainly not a precedent for him to be for it. There are a variety of ways he could permanently alter the brain functions of his many mentally disturbed patients, and he doesn't go to those lengths.

Plus, if I remember right, Batman stumbles onto the process, unsure of what's going on, but obviously able to tell that it isn't a normal procedure. And as Ollie described, they didn't just erase his memory, they "cleaned him up". I may be wrong on some of those details but I think they matter and factor into Batman's reaction.

Yeah. Honestly, I think Bats' main issue here was metahumans abusing their power. Was what happened to Sue absolutely horrifying? No question. And did Batman later abuse his power? You betcha. Basically you have a story where a lot of people overstepped their bounds here and it all turned into a giant clusterf*ck.

As for my own opinions on IC, while I did find the story engaging and it held my interest, this is exactly the kind of story I hate in modern superhero comics. I mean, it pretty much wipes it's butt with the genre then tosses it out in the middle of the street for everyone to see.

[Agent Z]

With the White Martians, the mind wipe blew up in their faces the same way Dr Light's mindwipe did. I also don't buy that Jonn alone was qualified in judging them given neither he nor the White Martians were citizens of Earth.

[Coal Tiger]

It did damage to nearly every character it touched, and for all it's claims to "mature" and "serious" takes on superheroes, the story hinged on Ray Palmer's ex-wife prank calling Sue Dibney while wearing the Atom's shrinking harness and a giant-ass flamethrower.

[kjn]

HAVING SAID ALL THAT, even if Batman were against the mind-wiping, I still don't feel he would have reacted the way he did, especially given that we're talking about everything occurring minutes after Sue was raped. He may have voiced his opinion. He may have quit the league if they still voted for it. But he wouldn't have reacted as aggressively as depicted in Identity Crisis.

I'm far less well-read about Batman than you are (or indeed most here are), but I've found that with modern Batman he often makes a lot of sense when read as a state actor in his own right. Not only taking the right of violent action (every superhero does that) but maintaining a monopoly on violence: IIRC Batman has at times asked other superheroes to stay out of Gotham, and other Gotham vigilantes must abide by his rules. As for justice, there are really three aspects of it from a state perspective: who gets to make the decisions, maintaining order, and fairness. From how I read modern Batman, his priorities are really in that order.

Viewed from that angle, Batman's reaction with the Tower of Babel storyline can be read as extreme but logical. His self-image is such that he must be ready to uphold the monopoly on violence against the other superheroes, and the original sin wasn't so much making the decision to mind-wipe Doctor Light as doing it without involving him in the decision.

[Agent Z]

I'm far less well-read about Batman than you are (or indeed most here are), but I've found that with modern Batman he often makes a lot of sense when read as a state actor in his own right. Not only taking the right of violent action (every superhero does that) but maintaining a monopoly on violence: IIRC Batman has at times asked other superheroes to stay out of Gotham, and other Gotham vigilantes must abide by his rules. As for justice, there are really three aspects of it from a state perspective: who gets to make the decisions, maintaining order, and fairness. From how I read modern Batman, his priorities are really in that order.

Viewed from that angle, Batman's reaction with the Tower of Babel storyline can be read as extreme but logical. His self-image is such that he must be ready to uphold the monopoly on violence against the other superheroes, and the original sin wasn't so much making the decision to mind-wipe Doctor Light as doing it without involving him in the decision.

But going by your logic, why would they need to involve him? Dr Light isn't a Batman villain, they weren't in Gotham and none of the heroes operate primarily in Gotham. Viewed from your angle, Batman has as much jurisdiction Superman would in Atlantis.