Identity Crisis: 15 Years Later (Spoilers)

[kjn]

But going by your logic, why would they need to involve him? Dr Light isn't a Batman villain, they weren't in Gotham and none of the heroes operate primarily in Gotham. Viewed from your angle, Batman has as much jurisdiction Superman would in Atlantis.

From Batman's admittedly skewed view, that he wasn't invited to the discussion might have been enough to make him think the rest of the JL had crossed a line.

Which brings up another thing: some depictions of Batman makes so much sense as an example of a problematic ally or of certain types of toxic masculinity.

[Lightning Rider]

From Batman's admittedly skewed view, that he wasn't invited to the discussion might have been enough to make him think the rest of the JL had crossed a line.

Which brings up another thing: some depictions of Batman makes so much sense as an example of a problematic ally or of certain types of toxic masculinity.

I like you're analysis. He is definitely written as viewing himself as having such an important role that not even inviting him is cause enough for alarm.

[kingaliencracker]

I think it’s even worse that Metzler implied Superman was aware of all the shady acts but pretends not to know so he doesn’t have to get his hands dirty.

To be fair, it was implied both Superman AND Batman were complicit in some of the shadier aspects of the league. I think Ollie said (to the effect) that Superman heard what he wanted to hear, and Batman saw what he wanted to see.

[kingaliencracker]

I'll concede to this but I'd argue that what the League did to Light is comparable to medicating people. It wasn't done with permission of the law, it was done in secret and the recepient wasn't mentally ill to justify this action. The League just did it because they didn't want Sue's rape getting out. They robbed Sue of a chance to get justice because they didn't want people to know a civilian got raped in the League's base.

Admittedly I may have missed something but I don't recall the motive of the League in altering Doctor Light being that they didn't want the world to know a civilian was raped at the JLA headquarters. I do know that they wanted to make sure Doctor Light wouldn't brag about the rape to others but that was because they didn't want to give him the satisfaction.

I also think we need to tread carefully when we start talking about super heroes following the law. Generally speaking many in the league operate outside of the law, Batman included. Let's not forget this was still the same continuity in which Superman executed the Phantom Zone criminals without a criminal proceeding.

[kingaliencracker]

I'm far less well-read about Batman than you are (or indeed most here are), but I've found that with modern Batman he often makes a lot of sense when read as a state actor in his own right. Not only taking the right of violent action (every superhero does that) but maintaining a monopoly on violence: IIRC Batman has at times asked other superheroes to stay out of Gotham, and other Gotham vigilantes must abide by his rules. As for justice, there are really three aspects of it from a state perspective: who gets to make the decisions, maintaining order, and fairness. From how I read modern Batman, his priorities are really in that order.

Viewed from that angle, Batman's reaction with the Tower of Babel storyline can be read as extreme but logical. His self-image is such that he must be ready to uphold the monopoly on violence against the other superheroes, and the original sin wasn't so much making the decision to mind-wipe Doctor Light as doing it without involving him in the decision.

But again, that was one of the sillier aspects of the story. Nearly half the league present was steadfast against altering Doctor Light, so as soon as Batman showed up also vehemently against it, that should have been enough to stop it and discuss it further. Instead, the same three heroes who made it clear that they were against the altering, voted to mind-wipe Batman. It made no sense.

[Agent Z]

Admittedly I may have missed something but I don't recall the motive of the League in altering Doctor Light being that they didn't want the world to know a civilian was raped at the JLA headquarters. I do know that they wanted to make sure Doctor Light wouldn't brag about the rape to others but that was because they didn't want to give him the satisfaction.

I also think we need to tread carefully when we start talking about super heroes following the law. Generally speaking many in the league operate outside of the law, Batman included. Let's not forget this was still the same continuity in which Superman executed the Phantom Zone criminals without a criminal proceeding.

Ollie states as such to Wally at the end of the final issue. The entire thing was to maintain the League's reputation of being an invincible force of good.

[kjn]

But again, that was one of the sillier aspects of the story. Nearly half the league present was steadfast against altering Doctor Light, so as soon as Batman showed up also vehemently against it, that should have been enough to stop it and discuss it further. Instead, the same three heroes who made it clear that they were against the altering, voted to mind-wipe Batman. It made no sense.

No quibbles about how poorly the situation was set up and handled plotwise, but it's not really germane to my point: Batman's actions here and in Tower of Babel can be interpreted not as being wholly out of character, but as horribly in character.

[kcekada]

Lots of things I didn't like about Identity Crisis, but the main thing was how poorly the Satellite league came across. Those guys were at the top of their game -- there is no way in Hell that Deathstroke could have taken on those guys. Also, Zatanna's powers didn't work the way they were written. She could easily have wipe his memory of those events without effecting his mental faculties. Oh, and then they took down two Silver Age girlfriends in one swoop. Why do writers love to tear down the girlfriends?

[Dred]

Lots of things I didn't like about Identity Crisis, but the main thing was how poorly the Satellite league came across. Those guys were at the top of their game -- there is no way in Hell that Deathstroke could have taken on those guys. Also, Zatanna's powers didn't work the way they were written. She could easily have wipe his memory of those events without effecting his mental faculties. Oh, and then they took down two Silver Age girlfriends in one swoop. Why do writers love to tear down the girlfriends?

Women and supporting characters are not, historically, seen as being as valuable as male and main characters. A woman who is a supporting character is an easy way to create angst and sadness to an """important""" main male character. Thus, you murder, rape, and otherwise traumatize these women for the purpose of developing the men. This is a long standing issue in comics for a long time that has only more recently gotten better. Barbara was not shot because of what it meant to Barbara -- she was shot because of what it meant to Gordon and Bruce. Sue was not raped and murdered because anyone in that writer's room gave a **** about Sue, it was because her death and rape was a catalyst to make Oliver and Carter and Barry etc feel bad. Women in comics, for many many years, were tools and methods rather than characters to most writers and Identity Crisis' treatment of Sue boldly sits as the top example of this despicable mindset.

[phantom1592]

Women and supporting characters are not, historically, seen as being as valuable as male and main characters. A woman who is a supporting character is an easy way to create angst and sadness to an """important""" main male character. Thus, you murder, rape, and otherwise traumatize these women for the purpose of developing the men. This is a long standing issue in comics for a long time that has only more recently gotten better. Barbara was not shot because of what it meant to Barbara -- she was shot because of what it meant to Gordon and Bruce. Sue was not raped and murdered because anyone in that writer's room gave a **** about Sue, it was because her death and rape was a catalyst to make Oliver and Carter and Barry etc feel bad. Women in comics, for many many years, were tools and methods rather than characters to most writers and Identity Crisis' treatment of Sue boldly sits as the top example of this despicable mindset.

That's just the lot in life for not just women... but supporting characters in general. Bucky gets blown up to cause grief to Captain America... Robin gets the nickname 'Boy Hostage' and spends WAY too much time tied to chairs to make Batman afraid he 'won't get there in time....' Jimmy Olsen was in danger just as often as Lois was too. Everyone talks about Gwen Stacy getting thrown off a bridge... but her father met the same fate... and for pretty much the same reason. Anything you can do to hit the hero 'in the feels'.

Mothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives are people that the 'hero' has the most emotional attachment to and hurts the worst when they fail... but male friends are just as fair game to get pounded on to progress the heroe's story.

That's really what 'Supporting' characters mean. The story is NOT about them. There is a push that every show and every book needs to be a 'team' book of equal characters... but in the comics world, it's not right. Superman and Batman and Spider-man are always going to be the spotlight 'main' characters... and everyone else is a part of THEIR story. Not the other way around. The Aunt mays and Jarvis the butlers will always get thrown under a bus hoping that the hero will be there to save them.

[Dred]

That's just the lot in life for not just women... but supporting characters in general. Bucky gets blown up to cause grief to Captain America... Robin gets the nickname 'Boy Hostage' and spends WAY too much time tied to chairs to make Batman afraid he 'won't get there in time....' Jimmy Olsen was in danger just as often as Lois was too. Everyone talks about Gwen Stacy getting thrown off a bridge... but her father met the same fate... and for pretty much the same reason. Anything you can do to hit the hero 'in the feels'.

Mothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives are people that the 'hero' has the most emotional attachment to and hurts the worst when they fail... but male friends are just as fair game to get pounded on to progress the heroe's story.

That's really what 'Supporting' characters mean. The story is NOT about them. There is a push that every show and every book needs to be a 'team' book of equal characters... but in the comics world, it's not right. Superman and Batman and Spider-man are always going to be the spotlight 'main' characters... and everyone else is a part of THEIR story. Not the other way around. The Aunt mays and Jarvis the butlers will always get thrown under a bus hoping that the hero will be there to save them.

But the main characters are all male. And the male characters don't get fucking raped. Don't even pretend to equate this and say there's nothing to do with gender here. There is and has been for the longest time. Comics are still quite the old boy's club.

[phantom1592]

But the main characters are all male.

That's a completely separate issue. Boys were the primary readers for decades, so the main characters are typically male. When the main characters are female... the 'hostages' and supporting characters are men. Steve Trevor is probably the biggest example. He's been killed off multiple times and held hostage a dozen more just to inspire Wonder Woman.

And the male characters don't get fucking raped. Don't even pretend to equate this and say there's nothing to do with gender here. There is and has been for the longest time. Comics are still quite the old boy's club.

Give it time. It's all about escalating whatever the most terrible thing possible could happen to the people you want to protect. Writers tend to go for the simplest solution and then try to one up it the next time. Strapping a kid to a bomb is 'silly'... so how about shooting a sidekick? That's too tame... how about we beat them to death with a crowbar!! Well, we already did THAT... what else is horrible that will burn itself into the audiences memory forever? Rape? Cannablism?

It would not surprise me at all if a Robin or a Speedy or Trevor gets assaulted in that fashion by someone in the next dozen years or so. It's all about shock value and what will be remembered 15 years later. Heck.. it wouldn't surprise if it's retconned into one of those Heroes in Crisis 'memory files'.

[Agent Z]

That's a completely separate issue. Boys were the primary readers for decades, so the main characters are typically male. When the main characters are female... the 'hostages' and supporting characters are men. Steve Trevor is probably the biggest example. He's been killed off multiple times and held hostage a dozen more just to inspire Wonder Woman.

No one’s saying that men haven’t served the role as hostages or murder victims in superhero comics but it doesn’t happen as often with women. For every Steve Trevor, there are about a hundred Sue Dibnys being killed off or Lois Lanes being kidnapped and in need of rescue.

But the main characters are all male. And the male characters don't get fucking raped. Don't even pretend to equate this and say there's nothing to do with gender here. There is and has been for the longest time. Comics are still quite the old boy's club.

In fairness, the male characters have been raped. Just not as often as female characters do.

[phonogram12]

With the White Martians, the mind wipe blew up in their faces the same way Dr Light's mindwipe did.

Well, of course it did. They're too good of villains not to bring back. Villains escaping their prisons is a trope as old as the medium.

[Agent Z]

Well, of course it did. They're too good of villains not to bring back. Villains escaping their prisons is a trope as old as the medium.

Yeah but in this case the "prison" was built by the heroes and proved ineffective. Same problem with Identity Crisis. Though at least the latter points out how stupid a mindwipe is as a solution.