Why I think Jean Grey is cool/underrated

[MechaJeanix]

People said to me that quesada had a rule that characters would stay dead. On the first year of Whedon, Colossus was ressurrected. So the rule was about Jean and only her.

For all talk of Morrison to give Jean a death memorable like Dark Phoenix, he failed badly. She didn't save anyone, it wasn't a sacrifice. It was a plot device to give angsty to Scott and only that. It didn't served Jean story.

Phoenix Ressurrection didn't even bothered to explain why she was back now and not earlier. Ressurrection is part of the Phoenix cycle

Morrison intended Jean to have a bad death. The "bad" death was even referenced in Here Comes Tomorrow (by other characters.. I believe it was Ernst/Cassandra). I mean sometimes characters do not have big meaningful deaths look at Tasha Yar.

I loved Jean's long running subplot in Morrison's run and I did like her death scene in Planet X. I was excited on how she was used in Here Comes Tomorrow. Yes I wish her death didn't last as long as it did, but overall I loved Morrison's X-Men and I loved his Jean Grey story. In my opinion it was in a lot of ways better than Dark Phoenix Saga (because of how DPS was written - not all of Claremont's writing still stands up). Don't get my wrong, I love the DPS, but Morrison's run to me is the best X-Men run (by far).

[Hizashi]

I think the idea that any superhero should stay dead forever is dumb. Imo they all deserve a chance to... Well, be publicated? Idk how to explain really. But comics are not finite stories like a movie or even TV shows where things just happen and... That's it.

Comic book characters are also brands or parts of brands somehow. Uncle Ben? Sure, he's a supporting character who literally died on his first appearance and was only made for one specific plot device. But Jean staying dead for all these years because "She should have stayed dead after DPS anyway" is one of the most dumb ones. DPS was already, well, not to say ruined, but overruled, almost 20 years before her most recent death. Jean came back and was alive for most of the '80s and the whole '90s and they can't take that back no matter what they do with her. Her actual death was a super lame one by some random. Not really a great story that shouldn't be tarnished.

And from an in-story point it never made any sense for her death to stick. Characters get all the most random, weird, convoluted ways to get back from death, but the girl who's literally connected to an entity who can resurrect people has to stay dead? C'mon.

The scale is weird - some characters will be dead for a year or two, others will be dead for a decade or more. I don't get how editorial makes these decisions.

People said to me that quesada had a rule that characters would stay dead. On the first year of Whedon, Colossus was ressurrected. So the rule was about Jean and only her.

For all talk of Morrison to give Jean a death memorable like Dark Phoenix, he failed badly. She didn't save anyone, it wasn't a sacrifice. It was a plot device to give angsty to Scott and only that. It didn't served Jean story.

Phoenix Ressurrection didn't even bothered to explain why she was back now and not earlier. Ressurrection is part of the Phoenix cycle

Maybe bringing back Colossus was a condition Whedon had? I can't hazard a guess why they kept Jean on the shelf for so long - maybe someday we'll know.

Planet X and Here Comes Tomorrow might've been the weakest parts of his run, and Morrison could've done a little more for Jean's narrative, but he had that whole divinity thing going on with her, and I still maintain that he left Jean in a place where Marvel could've done plenty with her after he left and they chose to do nothing.

That's a criticism I've had about PR since it concluded - why did the Phoenix bring Jean back? Why let her stay if she rejected it?

[MechaJeanix]

The scale is weird - some characters will be dead for a year or two, others will be dead for a decade or more. I don't get how editorial makes these decisions.



Maybe bringing back Colossus was a condition Whedon had? I can't hazard a guess why they kept Jean on the shelf for so long - maybe someday we'll know.

Planet X and Here Comes Tomorrow might've been the weakest parts of his run, and Morrison could've done a little more for Jean's narrative, but he had that whole divinity thing going on with her, and I still maintain that he left Jean in a place where Marvel could've done plenty with her after he left and they chose to do nothing.

That's a criticism I've had about PR since it concluded - why did the Phoenix bring Jean back? Why let her stay if she rejected it?

I agree and thought the same thing.. why did the Phoenix let Jean remain alive since she rejected it? If I were the Phoenix I would have returned her to death like Cyclops. If the Phoenix could bring her back to life at any time (Phoenix Endsong and Phoenix Resurrection then why did it wait so long? In Endsong they acted like they were together in the WHR so if they were together why did the Phoenix use other hosts while she was gone/dead?

So much of the story doesn't make sense and will never add up. And if writers try to explain some of it they will probably make it worse (in the Jean Grey solo they state a part of the host always remains in the White Hot Room with the Phoenix? Something like that?)

[Hizashi]

You mean not using it? the only things that stuck from Morrison were Fantomex, Jean's dead and Scemma.
Magneto as xorn was retcon, decimation ended the 3984540 new mutants that showed up, no more X-corporation.
At least Fantomex was ok, but he was also overplayed

Yeah, they retconned or threw out so much - why not Jean's death? That's basically the only thing they didn't touch.

Hope never really worked as Jean replacement, not even the same powers. Jeen worked better but then she would have to come back to her timeline anyway. It just made Marvel bring more characters that weren't needed at all.

It wasn't about the powers with Hope, but the ties to the Phoenix. Jeen literally was Jean, but thanks to telepathy, was able to be written OOC from Jean's characterization. And it seems like Rachel was edged out by Hope and Jeen sometimes...

I didn't asked to him undo Morrison decisions, but his statement about Jean were very poor and bad taste

What statements?

[Hizashi]

Morrison intended Jean to have a bad death. The "bad" death was even referenced in Here Comes Tomorrow (by other characters.. I believe it was Ernst/Cassandra). I mean sometimes characters do not have big meaningful deaths look at Tasha Yar.

I loved Jean's long running subplot in Morrison's run and I did like her death scene in Planet X. I was excited on how she was used in Here Comes Tomorrow. Yes I wish her death didn't last as long as it did, but overall I loved Morrison's X-Men and I loved his Jean Grey story. In my opinion it was in a lot of ways better than Dark Phoenix Saga (because of how DPS was written - not all of Claremont's writing still stands up). Don't get my wrong, I love the DPS, but Morrison's run to me is the best X-Men run (by far).

I don't think there are many people who wanted Jean to stay dead for as long as she did, or even to have died at all.

I agree and thought the same thing.. why did the Phoenix let Jean remain alive since she rejected it? If I were the Phoenix I would have returned her to death like Cyclops. If the Phoenix could bring her back to life at any time (Phoenix Endsong and Phoenix Resurrection then why did it wait so long? In Endsong they acted like they were together in the WHR so if they were together why did the Phoenix use other hosts while she was gone/dead?

So much of the story doesn't make sense and will never add up. And if writers try to explain some of it they will probably make it worse (in the Jean Grey solo they state a part of the host always remains in the White Hot Room with the Phoenix? Something like that?)

I thought that maybe there was some larger Phoenix/cosmic conflict brewing and that would ultimately be the reason for Jean's return. Instead we got Red, which seems so divorced from the rest of the books. What's carried over from Red other than the costumes? Will Nova's forced empathy be used whenever she shows up next?

[Supernature]

UNDERrated? LOL

[Mutant 77]

IMHO, without the Phoenix, Jean Grey is a pretty bland character.
And they screwed up the Phoenix persona and backstory too much in order for it to be still cool or relevant.
They just blew it.

[thechronic92]

I don't think there are many people who wanted Jean to stay dead for as long as she did, or even to have died at all.



I thought that maybe there was some larger Phoenix/cosmic conflict brewing and that would ultimately be the reason for Jean's return. Instead we got Red, which seems so divorced from the rest of the books. What's carried over from Red other than the costumes? Will Nova's forced empathy be used whenever she shows up next?

Was Taylor allowed to do anything phoenix related? The Phoenix seems to be off-limits for adult Jean. All the retcons seem designed to strip away her connection from it.

[spirit2011]

Morrison intended Jean to have a bad death. The "bad" death was even referenced in Here Comes Tomorrow (by other characters.. I believe it was Ernst/Cassandra). I mean sometimes characters do not have big meaningful deaths look at Tasha Yar.

I loved Jean's long running subplot in Morrison's run and I did like her death scene in Planet X. I was excited on how she was used in Here Comes Tomorrow. Yes I wish her death didn't last as long as it did, but overall I loved Morrison's X-Men and I loved his Jean Grey story. In my opinion it was in a lot of ways better than Dark Phoenix Saga (because of how DPS was written - not all of Claremont's writing still stands up). Don't get my wrong, I love the DPS, but Morrison's run to me is the best X-Men run (by far).

By "bad" you mean lame death? Because it was really lame, I don't remember HCT characters referencing it.

For Morrison that claimed that he wanted to do better than Dark phoenix, it wasn't any better.
For me good deads mean: being memorable, self sacrifice and some purpose/character journey.
So dark phoenix really win for me. The best that Morrison came up with Xorn giving her some giant massive stromagnetic pulse that killed her even with the Phoenix?
Oh really, Morrison?

The scale is weird - some characters will be dead for a year or two, others will be dead for a decade or more. I don't get how editorial makes these decisions.



Maybe bringing back Colossus was a condition Whedon had? I can't hazard a guess why they kept Jean on the shelf for so long - maybe someday we'll know.

Planet X and Here Comes Tomorrow might've been the weakest parts of his run, and Morrison could've done a little more for Jean's narrative, but he had that whole divinity thing going on with her, and I still maintain that he left Jean in a place where Marvel could've done plenty with her after he left and they chose to do nothing.

That's a criticism I've had about PR since it concluded - why did the Phoenix bring Jean back? Why let her stay if she rejected it?

Big writers can do almost anything. Whedon was a successful showrunner, the last thing he needed was money from comics. Later Psylocke and Magik also came back, so the rule only ever applied to Jean .

There was nothing to do with Jean, Morrison intention was close the door on her.

My take is that the Phoenix accepted the break up and let jean live her own life. Phoenix isn't the big bad that some writers made her

other question is why Phoenix got Jean stuck in that fake life simulation

[Spidercide]

Jean in EVO was good. She was the weakest, least interesting, and most Wonder Bread of the main cast, but she was her own character, not just Scott's goal. Her biggest issue was essentially becoming more of a team mom than Storm, the actual team mom. But that and those other criticisms could've actually worked in the show's favor if they got to adapt Dark Phoenix. Shame.

Again I think its just different. I like Evo Jean but I also think Jean in her comics history wasn't merely Scott's gf, esp in the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Sagas from the comics. I think least interesting/wonder bread is another example of us kind of expecting certain things from all characters when they're just not that kind of flavour of ice cream if you get me. Looked at with differnet criteria for what defines a cool or interesting hero (which is how I approached Jean in my OPs) I think Jean has a lot of worth to her.

I think btw this is part and parcel of the problem people seem to have with Wonder Woman. More often than not in adaptations they default her to being a generic goodey good hero (like every 1950s JLA member basically) except a woman or else they turn her into Xena. It's seemingly a challenge to understand what Perez and other guys did about her character which is that she is an incredibly powerful person capable of kicking all the ass but she is in her personality mostly someone who tries to reach out with diplomacy, love and empathy. Its easier to just default her into bad ass Amazon warrioress lady.

Weirdly a good example of a character not dissimilar to how I see Jean and Diana was Mayday Parker Spider-Girl. Yes usually she was punching out the villains, but her main creators (DeFalco and Frenz) made much effort to showcase her as trying to first talk down opponents and making an effort to help rehabilitate them afterwards, with one key issue literally being her defeating a villain who had her tied up at knife point by talking him down and out of suicide. Maybe its the fact that she's a solo-star unlike Jean not surrounded by more traditionally cool character but also not an inconsistently written character like Diana who via her premise (an amazon) perople presume to fall into different tropes, but either way Mayday seems to be an example of a character who's very empathetic but whom no one accuses of being that dull nor of turning her into a stoic bad ass.

[Spidercide]

Nova getting owned was definitely what I was anticipating the most - but the book failed that too. Jean outsmarted Nova at every turn, she barely broke a sweat - why was Nova the underdog? I have other issues with Red, but that might be better suited for another thread.



Man, when the art was bad in Morrison's run, it was bad. I think you've accurately described both of those runs.

I remember buying, with my own money even, single issues that were sold at convenience stores in my childhood neighborhood - unfortunately I didn't keep any of them. By the time I started buying monthly single issues, Jean was dead and the X-Men weren't what they used to be - I came in right when the Extinction crisis started.



There's always hope, in every nook and cranny, whenever Marvel does their periodic soft reboots/line-wide relaunches. I certainly hope that Scott is going to be featured in exciting stories and treated with respect - basically what everyone wants for their favorites.



Yeah, I doubt Morrison killed Jean against Marvel's wishes, and they could've brought her back at any point; instead, her death was basically the only thing not forgotten or contradicted soon after the run concluded. I wish editors would quit thinking of marriage as this negative weight - I enjoyed the Superman book with Lois and Jon. The question of which characters were better dead than alive is an interesting one. Not counting the obvious must-stay-dead characters, like Uncle Ben or Mar-Vell, I have seen a few people claim that Jean Grey or Jason Todd were better dead.



I never understood the idea that Jean needed Scott to stay dead to flourish - is she such a weak character that his presence undermines her? I've also seen claims that if Jean had lived, Scott wouldn't have become such an interesting (or polarizing if you like) character, but how does that make sense? Would Jean have stopped Marvel's Messiah Trilogy/Decimation narrative if she'd been around? Jean headed up a book with Scott completely gone and Marvel dropped that ball.

It's a shame when you think about how poorly Marvel has treated some of their best relationships.



I agree completely with your descriptions of BTAS and X-MenTAS.

Well Jean is intelligent and powerful so i saw no reason for her to not be able to outsmart Nova. I think part of it was wanting to make Jean look bad ass due to her absence coupled with her weak reputation.


I basically think ever since Morisson’s run the X-Men have been on a path of deconstruction along with semi-reconstructions. Morisson was all about deconstruction which some people claim ‘needed to happen’ apparently.*

That was followed by Whedon making the X-Men colourful superheroes again which I appreciated (maybe I appreciated in contrast to Morisson as opposed to it unto itself) but then we were almost immediately hit with the craptitude of House of M which was a mandate from upon high to cut down the number of mutants running around because we needed that obviously and then we were on a slow slog through the MU as a whole being needlessly broken by Civil War, Prof. X being further deconstructed as an ******* due to WWH and then we were on the slow march towards for some reason making Cyclops the new Magneto hotness and Wolverine the new Xavier hotness before Marvel wanted to make it clear their corporate priorities would now be with the Avengers and the X-Men would only matter so long as their golden Boy Bendis gave a **** about them or some of them were Avengers themselves.

My hope is that following Disassembled the X-Men will be reassembled in a more traditional status quo. Something where the teams can be united, be friends again and heroes with old grudges forgotten and past acts (read: Scott shifting away from Xavier’s dream) forgiven.

This goes along with my hopes that post-Endgame Marvel Studios will be resting the Avengers on the backburner and shifting focus onto the F4 and X-Men so corporate will love them again and not pretend the lame ass Inhumans are basically mutants too right.

Basically I feel as misguided and gimmicky parts of the 90s were the X-Men have been in a cycle of abuse since 2000.

The Superman book with Lois and Job proved the hypocrisy in the marriage is bad and boring mentality. They literally needed to reverse reboot Superman from being DC’s answer to BND Spider-Man (why would you ever do that, Superman doesn’t need stories about Lizard rapists) back into the Superman that nu52 replaced. And the sales and critical reception went UP.

I can understand people saying Jason (or even Bucky) were better off dead and with Jean. I am mixed with Jason and Bucky, though I prefer Jason to be dead for sure. With Jean I think a lot of the people who think she should’ve stayed dead (read Joe Q, Brevoort) feel that way because of nostalgia and/or sexism because her being dead makes Scott more interesting. Also because Claremont has said he thinks she should have stayed dead and his is (rightly) worshipped.

To me though because she wasn’t originally intended to die** and her character is literally called Phoenix it makes the idea of her returning to life entirely acceptable. I don’t think it made Scott any less interesting since her death began the intended wrapping up of his character anyway, with him being stupidly shipped off with a clone of Jean. I don’t even mean a literal clone I mean Claremont created someone who was practically Jean for the express purpose of giving Scott a happy ending into the sunset eventually anyway. So it wasn’t like his character being interesting mattered cos he was soon enough retired.

All that pain and grief and concern about dating a goddess was still a part of his character afterwards anyway because the fact that Jean had died before still defined her character so much.


What makes me slap my head is that Marvel seems to feel marriage is less interesting because there is less conflict even though there is innately more conflict in marriage than in the single life. Its just code for they want their male heroes to be bedhopping studs not tied down by boring commitment and free up for any new writer to insert their own fanfiction girlfriend or else easily generate novelty and hopefully interest via hook-ups. I mean the proof of this is that they ended Superman and Lois’ marriage. That’s the single most pointless couple to do that with because of how iconic they are; they literally had a tv show exclusively about their romance. There is 0 drama in either of them being with other people because you know its a total dead end so why bother with it.

Not to mention constant hook ups with 0 pay off is even more boring than the same characters all the time.

Frankly I think the easiest thing to do is just have writers treat a couple as semi-co-stars and write from both POVs e.g. Parallel Lives or Sensational Spider-Man annual 2007, an Eisner nominated story.


“I never understood the idea that Jean needed Scott to stay dead to flourish - is she such a weak character that his presence undermines her? I've also seen claims that if Jean had lived, Scott wouldn't have become such an interesting (or polarizing if you like) character, but how does that make sense? Would Jean have stopped Marvel's Messiah Trilogy/Decimation narrative if she'd been around? Jean headed up a book with Scott completely gone and Marvel dropped that ball.”

I think when you start getting into the realm of superhero couples always need to have a dom and a sub meaning they can only flourish apart or when one is dead you go to a really toxic place. Its so unnecessary in the X-Men too when there are so many books you could just say Uncanny is the book where Cyclops is more front and centre and Astonishing is the one where Jean is.

Technically Messiah trilogy wouldn’t have happened if Jean was alive because Hope was a substitute Jean and that was the point.

Also if Jean being dead = Cyclops becoming gradually more and more unlikable to the point where he is just the new Magneto hotness and a pseudo villain then now I wish Jean had lived even more because F that take on Cyclops. The Cyclops lovers who’ve defended him from his 80s and 90s portrayals have had to fight so much harder ever since he got more ‘interesting’. Just have him be a guy with self-esteem issues, in love with a pseudo Goddess, the weight of the world on his shoulders and having to make tough decisions but never crossing a particular line.

In future I want Cyclops to renew his belief in Xavier’s principles and admit he went too far or was wrong.


“It's a shame when you think about how poorly Marvel has treated some of their best relationships.”

Yeah well Make Mine Mighty Marvel Misogyny.

At this point I wonder if Northstar fans are annoyed his relationship doesn’t get trashed like all the heterosexual couples or grateful Marvel’s prejudices mean they stopped caring about him 5 minutes after his wedding and so no one could hurt them.

[TheCape]

Well Jean is intelligent and powerful so i saw no reason for her to not be able to outsmart Nova. I think part of it was wanting to make Jean look bad ass due to her absence coupled with her weak reputation.


I basically think ever since Morisson’s run the X-Men have been on a path of deconstruction along with semi-reconstructions. Morisson was all about deconstruction which some people claim ‘needed to happen’ apparently.*

That was followed by Whedon making the X-Men colourful superheroes again which I appreciated (maybe I appreciated in contrast to Morisson as opposed to it unto itself) but then we were almost immediately hit with the craptitude of House of M which was a mandate from upon high to cut down the number of mutants running around because we needed that obviously and then we were on a slow slog through the MU as a whole being needlessly broken by Civil War, Prof. X being further deconstructed as an ******* due to WWH and then we were on the slow march towards for some reason making Cyclops the new Magneto hotness and Wolverine the new Xavier hotness before Marvel wanted to make it clear their corporate priorities would now be with the Avengers and the X-Men would only matter so long as their golden Boy Bendis gave a **** about them or some of them were Avengers themselves.

My hope is that following Disassembled the X-Men will be reassembled in a more traditional status quo. Something where the teams can be united, be friends again and heroes with old grudges forgotten and past acts (read: Scott shifting away from Xavier’s dream) forgiven.

This goes along with my hopes that post-Endgame Marvel Studios will be resting the Avengers on the backburner and shifting focus onto the F4 and X-Men so corporate will love them again and not pretend the lame ass Inhumans are basically mutants too right.

Basically I feel as misguided and gimmicky parts of the 90s were the X-Men have been in a cycle of abuse since 2000.

The Superman book with Lois and Job proved the hypocrisy in the marriage is bad and boring mentality. They literally needed to reverse reboot Superman from being DC’s answer to BND Spider-Man (why would you ever do that, Superman doesn’t need stories about Lizard rapists) back into the Superman that nu52 replaced. And the sales and critical reception went UP.

I can understand people saying Jason (or even Bucky) were better off dead and with Jean. I am mixed with Jason and Bucky, though I prefer Jason to be dead for sure. With Jean I think a lot of the people who think she should’ve stayed dead (read Joe Q, Brevoort) feel that way because of nostalgia and/or sexism because her being dead makes Scott more interesting. Also because Claremont has said he thinks she should have stayed dead and his is (rightly) worshipped.

To me though because she wasn’t originally intended to die** and her character is literally called Phoenix it makes the idea of her returning to life entirely acceptable. I don’t think it made Scott any less interesting since her death began the intended wrapping up of his character anyway, with him being stupidly shipped off with a clone of Jean. I don’t even mean a literal clone I mean Claremont created someone who was practically Jean for the express purpose of giving Scott a happy ending into the sunset eventually anyway. So it wasn’t like his character being interesting mattered cos he was soon enough retired.

All that pain and grief and concern about dating a goddess was still a part of his character afterwards anyway because the fact that Jean had died before still defined her character so much.


What makes me slap my head is that Marvel seems to feel marriage is less interesting because there is less conflict even though there is innately more conflict in marriage than in the single life. Its just code for they want their male heroes to be bedhopping studs not tied down by boring commitment and free up for any new writer to insert their own fanfiction girlfriend or else easily generate novelty and hopefully interest via hook-ups. I mean the proof of this is that they ended Superman and Lois’ marriage. That’s the single most pointless couple to do that with because of how iconic they are; they literally had a tv show exclusively about their romance. There is 0 drama in either of them being with other people because you know its a total dead end so why bother with it.

Not to mention constant hook ups with 0 pay off is even more boring than the same characters all the time.

Frankly I think the easiest thing to do is just have writers treat a couple as semi-co-stars and write from both POVs e.g. Parallel Lives or Sensational Spider-Man annual 2007, an Eisner nominated story.


“I never understood the idea that Jean needed Scott to stay dead to flourish - is she such a weak character that his presence undermines her? I've also seen claims that if Jean had lived, Scott wouldn't have become such an interesting (or polarizing if you like) character, but how does that make sense? Would Jean have stopped Marvel's Messiah Trilogy/Decimation narrative if she'd been around? Jean headed up a book with Scott completely gone and Marvel dropped that ball.”

I think when you start getting into the realm of superhero couples always need to have a dom and a sub meaning they can only flourish apart or when one is dead you go to a really toxic place. Its so unnecessary in the X-Men too when there are so many books you could just say Uncanny is the book where Cyclops is more front and centre and Astonishing is the one where Jean is.

Technically Messiah trilogy wouldn’t have happened if Jean was alive because Hope was a substitute Jean and that was the point.

Also if Jean being dead = Cyclops becoming gradually more and more unlikable to the point where he is just the new Magneto hotness and a pseudo villain then now I wish Jean had lived even more because F that take on Cyclops. The Cyclops lovers who’ve defended him from his 80s and 90s portrayals have had to fight so much harder ever since he got more ‘interesting’. Just have him be a guy with self-esteem issues, in love with a pseudo Goddess, the weight of the world on his shoulders and having to make tough decisions but never crossing a particular line.

In future I want Cyclops to renew his belief in Xavier’s principles and admit he went too far or was wrong.


“It's a shame when you think about how poorly Marvel has treated some of their best relationships.”

Yeah well Make Mine Mighty Marvel Misogyny.

At this point I wonder if Northstar fans are annoyed his relationship doesn’t get trashed like all the heterosexual couples or grateful Marvel’s prejudices mean they stopped caring about him 5 minutes after his wedding and so no one could hurt them.

A correction there, Cyclops never turned into Magneto, i mean that's what Marvel wanted to sell, but he never really did anything that villanous or morally grey. Even both Logan and Scott mocked that analogy.

[Spidercide]

I think the idea that any superhero should stay dead forever is dumb. Imo they all deserve a chance to... Well, be publicated? Idk how to explain really. But comics are not finite stories like a movie or even TV shows where things just happen and... That's it.

Comic book characters are also brands or parts of brands somehow. Uncle Ben? Sure, he's a supporting character who literally died on his first appearance and was only made for one specific plot device. But Jean staying dead for all these years because "She should have stayed dead after DPS anyway" is one of the most dumb ones. DPS was already, well, not to say ruined, but overruled, almost 20 years before her most recent death. Jean came back and was alive for most of the '80s and the whole '90s and they can't take that back no matter what they do with her. Her actual death was a super lame one by some random. Not really a great story that shouldn't be tarnished.

And from an in-story point it never made any sense for her death to stick. Characters get all the most random, weird, convoluted ways to get back from death, but the girl who's literally connected to an entity who can resurrect people has to stay dead? C'mon.

It does kind of depend upon the specifics of each individual case. Like Mar-Vell really doesn't need to come back. His death helps fuel Carol, is a nice gender role reversal, it was an iconic death and tbh I think he's very much a product of his time anyway. He's all about that 1970s drug fuelled sci-fi wherein the appeal is in the mere existence of the Big Concept Idea (tm) in the first place. Now I think modern science fiction has moved on a lot.

Plus it does suck out the drama when death is such a revolving door. Also unnecesarry when we got flashback stories and AUs to continue exploring them if needs be. Why bring back Gwen when we have Spider-Gwen and her clone.

Also I frankly comics should be long running but ultimately finite. After all manga grossly outsells comics and they are mostly finite with the classics standing the tests of time and the stuff that doesn't still appreicated as products of their time not things that gives you head aches because you need to figure out how 60s stuff still happens nowdays.

I do agree about Jean Grey not needing to stay dead, although let us remember she only came back because of nostalgia. Also i agree killing off Jean bcos she should never have come back apparently is dumb. Surely you might as well just retcon she NEVER came back in the first place. I maintain Harry Osborn shouldn't have come back after Spec #200 but I wouldn't fix that if I could by just killing him again, I'd retcon he did die in spec #200 and ever since harry's been an imposter or something.

I hardcore disagree though that her DPS death was a lame death by some random incident. it was set up very well and executed with plenty of drama. TBH if is were to 'fix' it I'd just say it wasn't merely a clone of Jean but the genuine article she just straight up resurrected again.

"And from an in-story point it never made any sense for her death to stick. Characters get all the most random, weird, convoluted ways to get back from death, but the girl who's literally connected to an entity who can resurrect people has to stay dead? C'mon."

This is true, it's literally her super powerset to come back to life.

People said to me that quesada had a rule that characters would stay dead. On the first year of Whedon, Colossus was ressurrected. So the rule was about Jean and only her.

For all talk of Morrison to give Jean a death memorable like Dark Phoenix, he failed badly. She didn't save anyone, it wasn't a sacrifice. It was a plot device to give angsty to Scott and only that. It didn't served Jean story.

Phoenix Ressurrection didn't even bothered to explain why she was back now and not earlier. Ressurrection is part of the Phoenix cycle

Every imprint or new era claims they've got a dead=dead rule but it wasn't even true under Shooter when it was comparatively more true. Under Quesada Steve Rogers, Bucky, Harry Osborn AND Kraven the Hunter all came back and they were major deaths. Joe Q even wanted to bring Gwen Stacy back but Brevoort talked him out of it.

Jean in the DPS gave her life to prevent herself from destroying anyone. It was heroic. Morisson just fridged her via Magneto touching her arm. Even Karen Page's death was at least a more dramatic fridging.

That’s not Morrison’s fault.

LOL

My comment was about how horribly you misunderstood the death(Planet X) and future actions(HCT) of Jean Grey. It was nothing BUT meaningful, and it was intended that way by the author.

...didn't Jean grey mentally manipulate her ex-husband/widowed husband into a relationship with the woman he was cheating on her with at the end of that story...didn't Magneto...the Holocaust survivor...literally force humans into extermination chambers in Planet X?

how...optimistic

Morrison intended Jean to have a bad death. The "bad" death was even referenced in Here Comes Tomorrow (by other characters.. I believe it was Ernst/Cassandra). I mean sometimes characters do not have big meaningful deaths look at Tasha Yar.

I loved Jean's long running subplot in Morrison's run and I did like her death scene in Planet X. I was excited on how she was used in Here Comes Tomorrow. Yes I wish her death didn't last as long as it did, but overall I loved Morrison's X-Men and I loved his Jean Grey story. In my opinion it was in a lot of ways better than Dark Phoenix Saga (because of how DPS was written - not all of Claremont's writing still stands up). Don't get my wrong, I love the DPS, but Morrison's run to me is the best X-Men run (by far).

....All I am going to say is that i think its unfair to judge DPS by modern standards. All art of all kinds must only be judged by the standards of the time it was made in and for.

Modern standards are not innately superior (hence we went from great 80s art to Liefeld in the 90s and one of the most indemand artists today literally traces porn).

Frankly if a piece of art still holds up to modern standards that's just a nice little bonus but not the over all point.

Take Demolition Man.

90s film that was medicore in it's day, viewed as trash in the 2000s and oddly profound and fun in the 2010s. Does that mean the movie was great all along or does it just mean standards arbitraily changed to the point where it happened to become more accepted and relevant?

For all we know Morisson's run will be regarded widely as hot trash in 10 years and writing styles will swing back to what they were in the early 1980s rendering DPS no longer 'dated'.

So it just makes more sense to judge an early 1980s story by early 1980s standards and declare it genius by those standards.

[CRaymond]

how...optimistic

I didn’t say it was perfect. I said what it was about.

[TheDeadSpace]

I didn’t say it was perfect. I said what it was about.

It definitely had potential, but once the ball was in someone's hand it probably got slapped out.