Why I think Jean Grey is cool/underrated

[Heroine Addict]

Is she really underrated, though?...

No, I don't think so. If she was, why'd they even bother bringin' her back... AGAIN?! For further evidence, look to how she's been marketed in video games & other merchandise over the years, even when 'dead' in the comics. Then there's the upcoming Dark PhoeniX film, that can't be ignored either.

[Spidercide]

No, I don't think so. If she was, why'd they even bother bringin' her back... AGAIN?! For further evidence, look to how she's been marketed in video games & other merchandise over the years, even when 'dead' in the comics. Then there's the upcoming Dark PhoeniX film, that can't be ignored either.

probably cos of the movie tbh. its why they probably made brock venom again even though he'd not been venom for over 10 years and most everyone loved flash.

As for video games and other merchandise, jean was barely in the 2 x-men tv shows that came out after she died and was only in 4 movies. one of those was a cameo, one of those wasn't the real Jean, the other one was being consistent in wrapping up a trilogy and the other one was a soft reboot

[RachelGrey]

I really liked X-Men Red. I think my only criticism is that I want Jean and Rachel to have more interaction then they got, but that is pretty much the only thing. X-Men Red did bog down a bit near the end, but overall it was a pretty good story and I am glad it got some positive reviews as a collected edition.

Jean is still a featured player in AoXM, and I can't imagine that they are going to write her out again, I think she is back for the long run now. I expect her to be back on a book at the end of the year, probably in a leadership capacity.

I hope that Dark Phoenix doesn't ruin her chances of getting into the movies after the MCU merger. From all the rumours floating around about that movie I have a feeling it's going to bomb. I think part of the problem is they keep going back to the same well that X-Men 3 used for Dark Phoenix with just a few changes. They don't want to address the cosmic nature of the Phoenix and they keep going with the duel personality of Jean which I think is silly. This is one of the reasons I think the X-Men are better off in the MCU. Heck put them in the MCU and you can actually do a across the line version of Realm of Kings, or the Kree/Skrull War, or a war between the Shiar/Kree/Skrull that bleeds into Earth. The thing about the X-Men is that often times they are pulled into cosmic level events that put them into space along side the Guardians of the Galaxy and the Starjammers. To properly portray the Phoenix they need to show that she is a cosmic entity who has a strong attachment to Jean.

Regardless of the movies, I think Jean is going to come out of AoXM in a positive place. It might even be a good idea to bring back Uncanny Avengers and have Jean lead that team simply because she has the diplomacy needed to bridge the gaps between the X-Men and the Avengers.

[Hizashi]

I do not agree that it was necessary for Cyclops to reject Xavier’s principles. Regardless things changed after AvX so they need not continue to do that.

Necessary might be the wrong word, and my phrasing implies that Scott rejected Xavier's ideals which wasn't my intention. Xavier promoted peaceful coexistence between humans and mutants, and Scott and his teams never really rejected that ideal; they were simply more proactive about protecting mutants and their interests. They might have been mutant first, but they never stopped fighting for humans; not when it would've been beneficial for them to do so, not after the Schism, and not after AvX.

The MCU AvX would be basically CA: CW but bigger.

Without Thanos and the Avengers the cosmic guys like Galactus and the teams of the X-Men would be the natural replacement although we’re gonna get Dark Avengers apparently too...which I pray excludes Norman Osborn.

AvX just seems like it would be tricky to adapt - like it would be very easy for it to go wrong.

Dark Avengers could be cool, why would you want Osborn out of it?

Well i wasn’t saying it from a fav pov. I think there are some characters who creatively should come back, not die or stay dead depeding upon the specifics of the situation.

I agree Cyclops going into retirement was not the right direction for his character. But only at THAT point in time. he was still quite a young character who’d proven he had more stories in him. timing is important. When you get to stuff like trying to pretend Peter Parker is still in his mid-20s even now which would mean everything between 1973-2019 happened in less than 10 years it becomes ridiculous and you should just let the characters gracefully age.

Other Cyclops fans have said it first, but I consider Scott's membership to the X-Men something like being a cop or military officer - he's not simply going to retire in the countryside after getting his pension. If anyone is going to stick around in with the X-Men in some capacity, it's Scott. At the very least, if ranking the X-Men in terms of likelihood to retire, Scott is among the least likely.

One solution would be to learn from the mistakes of the Ultimate Universe and launch it for distinctly different purposes. Like if you said 616 X-Men will continue forward until the characters age out at which point either we wrap things up or trade in new guys (and really Wolverine could stick around due to his abilities anyway) and concurrently we launch an AU X-Men book on the mass/digital market which starts at the very start telling new modern stories and make that the heir to the 616 stuff it could work.

It worked for a number of years with Ultimate until they screwed the pooch and even worked with X-Men Evolution and Ultimate Spider-Man, the failing of the latter mostly being that they decided to commit to Peter being 15 forever whereas if they’d let him progress new stories would’ve cropped up naturally anyway.

It's a shame that the Ultimate Universe became a gratuitous hot mess. A line where characters age out could be interesting but it could go so wrong so fast, and there's no way of knowing if readers would even pick it up.

Plus...it’s not like the comics need to be around forever. The IPs don’t make most of their money from them.

I suppose they don't need to be around - where would we get new stories? Movies every few years? TV series or videogames?

I’m 90% sure Messiah Complex was meant to tease Jean’s return because I was a novice X-Fan who’d long since lapsed when Messiah Complex began and the buzz even to me on the peripheral was maybe Hope is Jean returned in some form.

Messiah trilogy occurring as a response to House of M doesn’t mean it wasn’t doubling up as a jean tease also. After all Maximum Carnage was intended as milking that Symbiote money, launching a new quarterly title and potentially generating spin-offs and promotion for other characters like Black Cat, Iron Fist, Deathlok, Venom and Spaw-er, Nightwatch.

Right, but that was more about Hope being Jean reincarnated - which would have prevented Jean's return. The Jean tease seemed more like a rumor that took a life of it's own - it was hardly the main aspect of the Hope/Phoenix narrative.

Well Spec got cancelled as a bi-product of the Disney purchase so it wasn’t really their fault. Sidenote: Between the comparatively more faithful Webb films, Spec and ITSV compared to the MCU, Ult Spidey cartoon and 2017 show Sony clearly gets Spider-Man better than Marvel.

I think the biggest example of a stupid death was Namor after Secret Wars. The writer literally said ‘why’re you so bent out of shape death in comics doesn’t matter anyway’ THEN WHY DID YOU DO IT!

That's true, I forgot about that. Corporations unwilling to play nice and it's the creative teams who work on the show and the fans who get hurt. Definitely agree that the Marvel Spider-Man shows were not in Spectacular's league.

That lack of awareness is funny and sad, although I can't speak to that example since I don't follow Namor.

[spirit2011]

Right, but that was more about Hope being Jean reincarnated - which would have prevented Jean's return. The Jean tease seemed more like a rumor that took a life of it's own - it was hardly the main aspect of the Hope/Phoenix narrative.

A writer said that the intention was really bring Jean using Hope, but them writers thought Jean deserved to come back as Jean.

[Hizashi]

I really liked X-Men Red. I think my only criticism is that I want Jean and Rachel to have more interaction then they got, but that is pretty much the only thing. X-Men Red did bog down a bit near the end, but overall it was a pretty good story and I am glad it got some positive reviews as a collected edition.

Jean is still a featured player in AoXM, and I can't imagine that they are going to write her out again, I think she is back for the long run now. I expect her to be back on a book at the end of the year, probably in a leadership capacity.

I hope that Dark Phoenix doesn't ruin her chances of getting into the movies after the MCU merger. From all the rumours floating around about that movie I have a feeling it's going to bomb. I think part of the problem is they keep going back to the same well that X-Men 3 used for Dark Phoenix with just a few changes. They don't want to address the cosmic nature of the Phoenix and they keep going with the duel personality of Jean which I think is silly. This is one of the reasons I think the X-Men are better off in the MCU. Heck put them in the MCU and you can actually do a across the line version of Realm of Kings, or the Kree/Skrull War, or a war between the Shiar/Kree/Skrull that bleeds into Earth. The thing about the X-Men is that often times they are pulled into cosmic level events that put them into space along side the Guardians of the Galaxy and the Starjammers. To properly portray the Phoenix they need to show that she is a cosmic entity who has a strong attachment to Jean.

Regardless of the movies, I think Jean is going to come out of AoXM in a positive place. It might even be a good idea to bring back Uncanny Avengers and have Jean lead that team simply because she has the diplomacy needed to bridge the gaps between the X-Men and the Avengers.

Even if they use the O5, which I hope that they do, I don't think they'll touch Dark Phoenix after it's been done twice. Spider-Man's origin was tread by Sony twice, so Marvel just skipped over it with their Spider-Man. I think X-fans in general just want characters other than Wolverine, Xavier, Magneto, and Mystique (ugh) to get a fair shake. Is there a specific story you would like to see be adapted for its use of Jean? Or would you be fine with any story so long as Jean is prominent?

I like your idea of Jean leading an Uncanny Avengers team, although it might bring her back to the Phoenix Force...

[Can'tHexTheX]

A writer said that the intention was really bring Jean using Hope, but them writers thought Jean deserved to come back as Jean.

Link to a quote?

I think I remember reading that Matt Fraction said Hope was going to be Jean reincarnated, but that it got nixed by well-documented fan of the X-Men, Joe Quesada.

[RachelGrey]

Even if they use the O5, which I hope that they do, I don't think they'll touch Dark Phoenix after it's been done twice. Spider-Man's origin was tread by Sony twice, so Marvel just skipped over it with their Spider-Man. I think X-fans in general just want characters other than Wolverine, Xavier, Magneto, and Mystique (ugh) to get a fair shake. Is there a specific story you would like to see be adapted for its use of Jean? Or would you be fine with any story so long as Jean is prominent?

I like your idea of Jean leading an Uncanny Avengers team, although it might bring her back to the Phoenix Force...

My ideal story for Jean is something to do with Rachel. I want them to do a story with the two of them in a way that they haven't done before and really explore the mother/daughter relationship. I think Jean is a good character to lead a team and I like the idea of maybe Scott and Logan leading a team, and Jean and Storm leading a team (after AoXM of course). I feel like Marvel has to decide how bad things are going to get for mutants after AoXM, if they want to calm things down I think having the Avengers jumping in and saying lets do the combined team again so we can present a unified face to the world, then Jean is a perfect person to lead that kind of team since she was already kind of doing that in X-Men Red when she reached out to the Avengers for help against Cassandra Nova.

[spirit2011]

Link to a quote?

I think I remember reading that Matt Fraction said Hope was going to be Jean reincarnated, but that it got nixed by well-documented fan of the X-Men, Joe Quesada.

I don't even remember who said that..

I found this comment here on CBR

And let's not forget that Matt Fraction spilled that the Messiah baby originally was going to be Jean reborn and that it was Quesada's idea. They later changed their minds and made Hope her own separate character. However, this explains why some of Jean's plot threads (collecting missing pieces of the Phoenix and being White Phoenix) were grafted onto Hope.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...47#post3146547

[Hizashi]

My ideal story for Jean is something to do with Rachel. I want them to do a story with the two of them in a way that they haven't done before and really explore the mother/daughter relationship. I think Jean is a good character to lead a team and I like the idea of maybe Scott and Logan leading a team, and Jean and Storm leading a team (after AoXM of course). I feel like Marvel has to decide how bad things are going to get for mutants after AoXM, if they want to calm things down I think having the Avengers jumping in and saying lets do the combined team again so we can present a unified face to the world, then Jean is a perfect person to lead that kind of team since she was already kind of doing that in X-Men Red when she reached out to the Avengers for help against Cassandra Nova.

A more fleshed-out approach to Jean and Rachel's mother-daughter relationship would be nice; I recall there being palpable anticipation for the numerous reunions with Jean, Rachel's reunion with her in particular. Jean has been mishandled since her return in my opinion and the lack of writing her ties to her family is just one example. I mean, Cable's been killed and Rachel is gone - but at least she gets bonding time with Hope!

AoXM is "darkness lurks in even the most seemingly idyllic world" and Uncanny is "even in the darkest times there are reasons to move forward" - or at least, that's how I see it right now. If the darkest elements are resolved at the conclusion of the event, I could see Jean and Scott as juxtaposed/parallel leaders among the X-Men. On an unrelated note, I personally don't think Jean's involvement should be what brings Scott back into the good graces of the superhero community.

[RachelGrey]

A more fleshed-out approach to Jean and Rachel's mother-daughter relationship would be nice; I recall there being palpable anticipation for the numerous reunions with Jean, Rachel's reunion with her in particular. Jean has been mishandled since her return in my opinion and the lack of writing her ties to her family is just one example. I mean, Cable's been killed and Rachel is gone - but at least she gets bonding time with Hope!

AoXM is "darkness lurks in even the most seemingly idyllic world" and Uncanny is "even in the darkest times there are reasons to move forward" - or at least, that's how I see it right now. If the darkest elements are resolved at the conclusion of the event, I could see Jean and Scott as juxtaposed/parallel leaders among the X-Men. On an unrelated note, I personally don't think Jean's involvement should be what brings Scott back into the good graces of the superhero community.

That's the reason I would rather there be two teams, Logan and Scott can continue on Uncanny, and then bring back X-Men (whatever color) and have Jean and Storm lead that team. Have Jean and Scott interact but I think they shouldn't jump into a relationship right away after AoXM, I would rather see Jean developed as a leader of the X-Men.

[Hizashi]

That's the reason I would rather there be two teams, Logan and Scott can continue on Uncanny, and then bring back X-Men (whatever color) and have Jean and Storm lead that team. Have Jean and Scott interact but I think they shouldn't jump into a relationship right away after AoXM, I would rather see Jean developed as a leader of the X-Men.

I don't see the color gimmick coming back - adjectiveless X-Men seems like it could be on it's way back, right? Do you think they'll relaunch Uncanny with whatever other flagship book they put out?

[Spidercide]

I really liked X-Men Red. I think my only criticism is that I want Jean and Rachel to have more interaction then they got, but that is pretty much the only thing. X-Men Red did bog down a bit near the end, but overall it was a pretty good story and I am glad it got some positive reviews as a collected edition.

Jean is still a featured player in AoXM, and I can't imagine that they are going to write her out again, I think she is back for the long run now. I expect her to be back on a book at the end of the year, probably in a leadership capacity.

I hope that Dark Phoenix doesn't ruin her chances of getting into the movies after the MCU merger. From all the rumours floating around about that movie I have a feeling it's going to bomb. I think part of the problem is they keep going back to the same well that X-Men 3 used for Dark Phoenix with just a few changes. They don't want to address the cosmic nature of the Phoenix and they keep going with the duel personality of Jean which I think is silly. This is one of the reasons I think the X-Men are better off in the MCU. Heck put them in the MCU and you can actually do a across the line version of Realm of Kings, or the Kree/Skrull War, or a war between the Shiar/Kree/Skrull that bleeds into Earth. The thing about the X-Men is that often times they are pulled into cosmic level events that put them into space along side the Guardians of the Galaxy and the Starjammers. To properly portray the Phoenix they need to show that she is a cosmic entity who has a strong attachment to Jean.

Regardless of the movies, I think Jean is going to come out of AoXM in a positive place. It might even be a good idea to bring back Uncanny Avengers and have Jean lead that team simply because she has the diplomacy needed to bridge the gaps between the X-Men and the Avengers.

I think the truth is it’s guaranteed to bomb regardless because its one of the 2 remaining X-Men movies and is being released just because it’s been made. There has been little promotion for it, it’s been reshot more than once likely because Feige or whoever mandated it do so and people still hate on Apocalypse which this is a direct sequel to. Fant4stic bombed cos it was bad for sure, but there was a strong element of people turning on it for not being in the MCU and I think that applies here. This is akin to DC announcing another reboot but then also releasing a new mini set in the old continuity just before it. who would bother with that it’s pointless.

As for going back to the well X3 did, we dunno what will happen. X-men 3’s big problem was it was a movie based upon Gifted that shoehorned in Phoenix. Dark Phoenix will be ABOUT Phoenix which is a major change...although they got the same screenwriter I think.

I think the X-Men are better in the MCU cos then the comics division won’t try undermining them. But as films they’re better off outside of it. I saw how they messed up Spider-Man and I do not want to see that happen with X-Men.

Necessary might be the wrong word, and my phrasing implies that Scott rejected Xavier's ideals which wasn't my intention. Xavier promoted peaceful coexistence between humans and mutants, and Scott and his teams never really rejected that ideal; they were simply more proactive about protecting mutants and their interests. They might have been mutant first, but they never stopped fighting for humans; not when it would've been beneficial for them to do so, not after the Schism, and not after AvX.



AvX just seems like it would be tricky to adapt - like it would be very easy for it to go wrong.

Dark Avengers could be cool, why would you want Osborn out of it?



Other Cyclops fans have said it first, but I consider Scott's membership to the X-Men something like being a cop or military officer - he's not simply going to retire in the countryside after getting his pension. If anyone is going to stick around in with the X-Men in some capacity, it's Scott. At the very least, if ranking the X-Men in terms of likelihood to retire, Scott is among the least likely.



It's a shame that the Ultimate Universe became a gratuitous hot mess. A line where characters age out could be interesting but it could go so wrong so fast, and there's no way of knowing if readers would even pick it up.



I suppose they don't need to be around - where would we get new stories? Movies every few years? TV series or videogames?



Right, but that was more about Hope being Jean reincarnated - which would have prevented Jean's return. The Jean tease seemed more like a rumor that took a life of it's own - it was hardly the main aspect of the Hope/Phoenix narrative.



That's true, I forgot about that. Corporations unwilling to play nice and it's the creative teams who work on the show and the fans who get hurt. Definitely agree that the Marvel Spider-Man shows were not in Spectacular's league.

That lack of awareness is funny and sad, although I can't speak to that example since I don't follow Namor.

An AvX adaptation need only be spiritual. If you compare the movie to the comic, Civil War is barely anything like the comic. And that’s a good thing because it was vastly superior. With this you don’t need the phoenix you just need A reason the Avengers and X-Men fight, whatever it is.

I wouldn’t want Norman in Dark Avengers because fundamentally Norman Osborn should be a Spider-Man villain and his time as an Avengers villain made him too similar to Luthor. Also frankly Marvel Studios have systemically dropped the ball on Spider-Man.

Well you could come up with rationales for why Scott would retire or perhaps move into a more support role than be the field leader.

I’m not saying make a line where the characters could hypothetically age out. I’m saying age them out in 616 and create a side AU where they’re at the start of their careers and when the 616 guys retire they metaphorically pass the baton to the younger versions in the AU. There have been enough successful adaptations to show us the 616 fans could enjoy something like that.

Well consider this. On and off we’ve had new Sherlock Holmes stories for over 100 years because the canon ended 100+ years ago. We don’t perennially need new stories about every character or franchise and it leaves room for new ideas to flourish like the ones IMAGE have made a reputation off of or how the manga industry works. Also it allows room for more diversity.

My ideal story for Jean is something to do with Rachel. I want them to do a story with the two of them in a way that they haven't done before and really explore the mother/daughter relationship. I think Jean is a good character to lead a team and I like the idea of maybe Scott and Logan leading a team, and Jean and Storm leading a team (after AoXM of course). I feel like Marvel has to decide how bad things are going to get for mutants after AoXM, if they want to calm things down I think having the Avengers jumping in and saying lets do the combined team again so we can present a unified face to the world, then Jean is a perfect person to lead that kind of team since she was already kind of doing that in X-Men Red when she reached out to the Avengers for help against Cassandra Nova.

With X-Men and Avengers both I have felt for a long time the thing to do is what they did in Justice League Unlimited. Just have everyone together on one big team and story by story decide which members are going to head on on this or that mission rather than pick a small roster for the entire series. You give the senior members (read: the O5 and the Byrne era classic team) seniroty over everyone else and on equal footing with one another, so they’re all equally regarded as leaders.* And then put the book out 2 times a month so you get more stories with more characters per year.

*In JLU, the O7 Leagers were the over all leaders but none of them were higher rank to one another.

[Hizashi]

An AvX adaptation need only be spiritual. If you compare the movie to the comic, Civil War is barely anything like the comic. And that’s a good thing because it was vastly superior. With this you don’t need the phoenix you just need A reason the Avengers and X-Men fight, whatever it is.

Removing the Phoenix probably would improve an adaptation.

Now that DPS has been adapted twice, if Jean is brought to the MCU, what will her character arc be? Will the team have already been through DPS? I kinda wish we could have a Messiah Trilogy adaptation, as unlikely as that is - maybe they could work Jean into it?

I wouldn’t want Norman in Dark Avengers because fundamentally Norman Osborn should be a Spider-Man villain and his time as an Avengers villain made him too similar to Luthor. Also frankly Marvel Studios have systemically dropped the ball on Spider-Man.

That's a fair criticism - how has Marvel dropped the ball on Spider-Man?

Well you could come up with rationales for why Scott would retire or perhaps move into a more support role than be the field leader.

Moving into a support role or figurehead like Xavier makes more sense than retirement.

I’m not saying make a line where the characters could hypothetically age out. I’m saying age them out in 616 and create a side AU where they’re at the start of their careers and when the 616 guys retire they metaphorically pass the baton to the younger versions in the AU. There have been enough successful adaptations to show us the 616 fans could enjoy something like that.

Well consider this. On and off we’ve had new Sherlock Holmes stories for over 100 years because the canon ended 100+ years ago. We don’t perennially need new stories about every character or franchise and it leaves room for new ideas to flourish like the ones IMAGE have made a reputation off of or how the manga industry works. Also it allows room for more diversity.

I don't know, it seems like the AU setting would tempt writers to go off the rails...

AU books already fulfill that purpose - maybe Marvel should simply allow them to run for longer than 12 issues?

With X-Men and Avengers both I have felt for a long time the thing to do is what they did in Justice League Unlimited. Just have everyone together on one big team and story by story decide which members are going to head on on this or that mission rather than pick a small roster for the entire series. You give the senior members (read: the O5 and the Byrne era classic team) seniroty over everyone else and on equal footing with one another, so they’re all equally regarded as leaders.* And then put the book out 2 times a month so you get more stories with more characters per year.

*In JLU, the O7 Leagers were the over all leaders but none of them were higher rank to one another.

I could really get behind this idea. Maybe Uncanny X-Men more regularly uses the veteran characters while X-Men more regularly uses newer characters?

[Wiccan]

On a world where Fox didn't decide to rush Dark Phoenix, they could have merged AvX and Dark Phoenix together. Avengers vs X-Men: Dark Phoenix. The basic idea of AvX in which the Avengers are trying to stop the Phoenix and the X-Men on her side. But almost everything else it's actually based on the Dark Phoenix Saga. After lots of buildup on the previous X-Men movies, making it so Jean sacrificing herself would be as heartbreaking as the IW deaths. Sigh.