Why I think Jean Grey is cool/underrated

[Spidercide]

Superheroes are not "merely" a singular genre, that classification is too limiting, and doesn't allow for the broader concepts they can encompass. Like Spielberg, I think you're doing them a disservice & shortchanging them, by trying to force them into the same category as say... westerns. Blanket term, or 'umbrella' designation if you will, is a more apt description IMO. Their potential is so far-reaching, it's practically all-absorbing, and therefore... HIGHLY adaptable, like no other before it. Jessica Jones didn't have a costume, there have been many non-superhero enhanced human(oid) stories told, and James Bond has pretty much had a rogues gallery. Those things are not necessary, unique, and/or exclusive to, the world of superheroes.

I’m sorry but that’s not true.

Superheroes are 100% a genre unto themselves as I explained above. They can incorporate SUB-genres and there can be different types of superhero stories but are they a genre unto themselves with their own tropes and what not?

Yeah absolutely.

Thus saying they aren’t a genre is untrue.

You bring up Jessica Jones as an example of the superhero genre except...she isn’t.

She was never a superhero story ever and that was part and parcel of how Jemas talked about her when she was an upcoming character. She was a private eye story, who happened to have super powers, not a superhero. A story about someone with super powers is not innately a super hero story. Spock from Star Trek for example is not a superhero. That’s why the genre is called the superhero genre and not the super power genre.

James Bond hasn’t had a rogue’s gallery since only 2 of his opponents are recurring characters. Bond is a spy and an example of that genre. Superheroes also predate him so its not a good example.

Even if one was to say a rogue’s gallery is superhero trope thing, my description specified that superheroes can have elements from other genres. Moroever its the combination of those and other elements that render them a genre not the fact that other types of stories can have them too.

So...yeah, the costumes, the rogue’s gallery etc, those are absolutely necessary to the super hero genre but the fact that aren’t unique to them is irrelevant. Many genres are distinct from one another but have elements in common with other ones. Its more the fact that these certain elements all co-exist together and are baked into superhero genre stories.

[CRaymond]

sounds more like a venn diagram of fiction tropes to me

[Spidercide]

Removing the Phoenix probably would improve an adaptation.

Now that DPS has been adapted twice, if Jean is brought to the MCU, what will her character arc be? Will the team have already been through DPS? I kinda wish we could have a Messiah Trilogy adaptation, as unlikely as that is - maybe they could work Jean into it?



That's a fair criticism - how has Marvel dropped the ball on Spider-Man?



Moving into a support role or figurehead like Xavier makes more sense than retirement.



I don't know, it seems like the AU setting would tempt writers to go off the rails...

AU books already fulfill that purpose - maybe Marvel should simply allow them to run for longer than 12 issues?



I could really get behind this idea. Maybe Uncanny X-Men more regularly uses the veteran characters while X-Men more regularly uses newer characters?

I think if Jean goes to the MCU we could still get the DPS again but this time it could be done differently, maybe better by having her corruption be gradual throughout several films. But we wouldn’t do that for a very long time. After all lets be real it’s not like we’re never going to see another Goblin in a Spider-Man movie again. We won’t see his origin but that’s different because that’s a case of you are going over the beginning of the story over and over again.

I wouldn’t discount the Messiah Trilogy. The MCU at this point has for better or worse shown a leaning towards more modern stories as their basis. Iron Man 3 was Extremis. Winter Soldier was...winter soldier. Guardians of the Galaxy/Vol. 2 was the 2008 iteration of the team. Civil War=Civil War. Homecoming was Miles Morales. Ragnarok was half Planet Hulk. Black Panther was Priest’s run which was late 1990s/early 2000s Marvel Knights stuff so more or less the modern era. Infinity War might’ve partially been Thanos Quest and Infinity Gauntlet (which were 1990s stories so...kind of modern?) but it also had elements of Infinity in them too.

So drawing upon Messiah stuff is more likely than not, Bendis being one of the former head honchos of the MCU meant stuff from his time in the company got looked at a lot...for better or worse.

I expect we will see a lot of Whedon era stuff in there.

Marvel Studios dropped the ball on Spider-Man in several ways but the absolute biggest is when it comes to Peter Parker’s character. Because if you were to break him down he’d have tiny nuggets of 616 Peter Parker, some other tiny nuggets of Ultimate Peter Parker and massive doses of Ultimate cartoon Spider-Man (who was essentially Ben 10 with webs, even made by the same people) and Miles Morales.

All wrapped up in Marvel’s nonsense that Spider-Man is obviously a character defined by youth which is provably untrue. Consequently you wind up with a version of Spider-Man who’s more incompetent than any version of the character sans Brand New Day or the Ultimate cartoon. Who’s defined by aspiring up to older heroes like Miles Morales. Who is effectively defined by a young hero/older mentor figure hero dynamic, which is precisely the opposite of his original intention. Also Aunt May was stated to be more like big sister instead of like his mother.

I et you need something new and different but new and different shouldn’t be a licence to be ANYTHING different.

I always figured in the MC2 universe Cyclops was in that Xavier role for the X-People or that world’s X-Men (IIRC the X-Men were a different group from the X-People) with Jubilee in his role of field commander.

I think writers go off the rails because editors nowdays have lost the art of just saying ‘No’. Only in really extreme cases was Bendis not allowed to do whatever he wanted or else when there was a company crossover. Outside of crossovers or whenever someone wants to kill Kingpin or give Spider-Man 2 adult twin kids editors seem to let writers do whatever and this has been detrimental over all.

Alternatively though you could bend the rules for this AU and say it’s more a playground for writers to show up and do pretty much whatever they want for their run and then the next writer can do whatever they want, whilst imposing stricter rules for the aging 616 universe.

AU books only fulfil the purposes of presenting off-the rails scenarios not being an ongoing universe unto themselves with the intention of being classical.

On a world where Fox didn't decide to rush Dark Phoenix, they could have merged AvX and Dark Phoenix together. Avengers vs X-Men: Dark Phoenix. The basic idea of AvX in which the Avengers are trying to stop the Phoenix and the X-Men on her side. But almost everything else it's actually based on the Dark Phoenix Saga. After lots of buildup on the previous X-Men movies, making it so Jean sacrificing herself would be as heartbreaking as the IW deaths. Sigh.

an AvX movie would work better than the comics because the comics demanded everyone prescibe to stupid pills to make the plot work. 'Oh no we can't allow the Phoenix Force to come to Earth its innately corrupting and evil. Even though Rachel Grey has had it and wasn't like that and it only went evil because Mastermind mind raped Jean Grey('s clone)'. In a universe where none of that good history or extenuating circumstances exist the plot is more justified. Same with CW. In the MCU where large scale superhero damage has only occassionally happened across 8 years whenever there is a movie, it is more justified than in the 616 universe where it's been nigh continuous for 15+ years and where if the government were ever going to have a SHRA they would've done it years ago to deal with the super VILLAINS of which there are far more than superheroes.

As for an AvX movie involving he Avengers I disagree because the DPS is so personal to Jean, to Cyclops to the X-Men as a whole.

[Marvelboy1974]

I think that if Jean is brought into the MCU she should not go DARK PHOENIX for a VERY VERY long time. The first 3 or 4 movies should firmly establish the X-men in the MCU properly, and the Dark Phoenix Saga is just too important a story to rush. I agree, a gradual corruption is better, but she should be competent from the very beginning. I think X-men Evolution Jean was badass in her ability without having the Phoenix. The thing about Jean is that she needs time for people to fall in love with her so that when she does go Dark Phoenix the tragedy will be that much more important. Rachel Grey needs to also come into the fold. Perhaps being actually born to Scott and Jean in the MCU so that if and when Jean as Dark Phoenix is "killed off" at least Rachel will exist to carry on the legacy. This would also match FF's Franklin Richards storyline if they are to be together one day.

I think it is also important that when X-men does debut, Wolverine not be in the 1st movie, so that other characters can get screen time and for Jean and Scott to develop their romance. Jean needs to also form deep bonds with her bffs Storm, Bobby, Angel, Hank, etc.

Anyway, I am looking forward to stories where adult Jean is able to remember herself as teen Jean in the present so that she can access her pink form.

[Phoenixx9]

Or, they could introduce Jean and the X-Men (hey, I like the sound of that!) After the DP Saga, mentioning "Jean's own dark days". Jean would be alive, without the PF, but very powerful and in control of her powers.

[MechaJeanix]

I jokingly think we need a Make Jean Grey Great Again movement. Of course I'm only teasing. After some debate in this thread I went and re-read a large portion of Grant Morrison's run and I fell madly in love again with it. It was just like I remembered...or perhaps even better. I loved Jean in those moments. They felt so real and true to not only her character but to the X-men as a whole. Accuse me of gross bias, but when I think of the X-men at their very best I think of Grant Morrison's New X-men. I don't know if anything else X-men can leave up to what I feel about that entire run.

I think Jean in X-men Red was good, but not perfect. She was too passive for me, but I do think she had some good moments. I think Jean is best when she is human and makes mistakes. She shouldn't be too perfect. She should have her temper which a lot of writers forget/ignore. She should be very powerful (but never too powerful that she cannot be defeated or have to be nerfed to show how bad ass her villains are). I think there should be an edge to her because of her growing/strong powers. I like Jean as a field leader but sometimes leaders can be portrayed as too stoic and boring (look at specific ranges in time for Scott and Ororo). I like Jean as a mutant activist. I want to see more of that, but again she shouldn't be too perfect. I think Jean is very empathic, and she should be against violence but when it comes down to it she shouldn't be afraid to use violence if it means protecting those that she cares about.


I do think Jean can be under appreciated by some creatives. I get the sense that a lot of the current writers see her as a background character or worse a gf/wife/mother character (not that there is anything wrong with those identities but Jean should be so much more than a prop for men!). My fear is that a lot of the current creators grew up with X-men the Animated series Jean and that is how they see her (hopefully I'm way wrong).


Jean had some good moments in the recent Uncanny, but again she was too passive and didn't really show her omega level mutant status. I want to see Jean unafraid to lash out. Why is she still holding back? I want a writer to unpack that (like we thought Tom Taylor might).

[Spidercide]

I think that if Jean is brought into the MCU she should not go DARK PHOENIX for a VERY VERY long time. The first 3 or 4 movies should firmly establish the X-men in the MCU properly, and the Dark Phoenix Saga is just too important a story to rush. I agree, a gradual corruption is better, but she should be competent from the very beginning. I think X-men Evolution Jean was badass in her ability without having the Phoenix. The thing about Jean is that she needs time for people to fall in love with her so that when she does go Dark Phoenix the tragedy will be that much more important. Rachel Grey needs to also come into the fold. Perhaps being actually born to Scott and Jean in the MCU so that if and when Jean as Dark Phoenix is "killed off" at least Rachel will exist to carry on the legacy. This would also match FF's Franklin Richards storyline if they are to be together one day.

I think it is also important that when X-men does debut, Wolverine not be in the 1st movie, so that other characters can get screen time and for Jean and Scott to develop their romance. Jean needs to also form deep bonds with her bffs Storm, Bobby, Angel, Hank, etc.

Anyway, I am looking forward to stories where adult Jean is able to remember herself as teen Jean in the present so that she can access her pink form.

They could use the fresh start to try and replicate the comics. Do the O5 X-Men for awhile before introducing the Second Genesis Team. That way it allows Wolverine's death in Logan to retain a lot of impact since it'd be awhile before you saw Wolverine again. Also you'd be able to miss Storm and Nightcrawler and maybe Colossus for awhile after Apocalypse and DP movies. Sort of make the ANAD team the X-Men Phase 2 within the MCU