Why I think Jean Grey is cool/underrated

[spirit2011]

I can understand people saying Jason (or even Bucky) were better off dead and with Jean. I am mixed with Jason and Bucky, though I prefer Jason to be dead for sure. With Jean I think a lot of the people who think she should’ve stayed dead (read Joe Q, Brevoort) feel that way because of nostalgia and/or sexism because her being dead makes Scott more interesting. Also because Claremont has said he thinks she should have stayed dead and his is (rightly) worshipped.

Jason barely had story before getting killed, Jean was on x-men since the start. So have a battle to justify such a essential character not being dead is really tiresome.

Claremont is all about Maddie, he got screwed by the editors. He wanted Jean back.

What makes me slap my head is that Marvel seems to feel marriage is less interesting because there is less conflict even though there is innately more conflict in marriage than in the single life. Its just code for they want their male heroes to be bedhopping studs not tied down by boring commitment and free up for any new writer to insert their own fanfiction girlfriend or else easily generate novelty and hopefully interest via hook-ups. I mean the proof of this is that they ended Superman and Lois’ marriage. That’s the single most pointless couple to do that with because of how iconic they are; they literally had a tv show exclusively about their romance. There is 0 drama in either of them being with other people because you know its a total dead end so why bother with it.

Not to mention constant hook ups with 0 pay off is even more boring than the same characters all the time.

Frankly I think the easiest thing to do is just have writers treat a couple as semi-co-stars and write from both POVs e.g. Parallel Lives or Sensational Spider-Man annual 2007, an Eisner nominated story.

Ir really makes romance boring when nothing pays off.

“I never understood the idea that Jean needed Scott to stay dead to flourish - is she such a weak character that his presence undermines her? I've also seen claims that if Jean had lived, Scott wouldn't have become such an interesting (or polarizing if you like) character, but how does that make sense? Would Jean have stopped Marvel's Messiah Trilogy/Decimation narrative if she'd been around? Jean headed up a book with Scott completely gone and Marvel dropped that ball.”

I think when you start getting into the realm of superhero couples always need to have a dom and a sub meaning they can only flourish apart or when one is dead you go to a really toxic place. Its so unnecessary in the X-Men too when there are so many books you could just say Uncanny is the book where Cyclops is more front and centre and Astonishing is the one where Jean is.

Technically Messiah trilogy wouldn’t have happened if Jean was alive because Hope was a substitute Jean and that was the point.

It's really weird that Quesada and editors thought that Jean had to be kept dead, so Cyclops could have his journey. SO editors really thought Scott was a weak character that couldn't hold his own if Jean was alive?

Also if Jean being dead = Cyclops becoming gradually more and more unlikable to the point where he is just the new Magneto hotness and a pseudo villain then now I wish Jean had lived even more because F that take on Cyclops. The Cyclops lovers who’ve defended him from his 80s and 90s portrayals have had to fight so much harder ever since he got more ‘interesting’. Just have him be a guy with self-esteem issues, in love with a pseudo Goddess, the weight of the world on his shoulders and having to make tough decisions but never crossing a particular line.

They didn't wanted that Cyclops anymore. They wanted him full of himself.

“It's a shame when you think about how poorly Marvel has treated some of their best relationships.”

Yeah well Make Mine Mighty Marvel Misogyny.

At this point I wonder if Northstar fans are annoyed his relationship doesn’t get trashed like all the heterosexual couples or grateful Marvel’s prejudices mean they stopped caring about him 5 minutes after his wedding and so no one could hurt them.

It is awful not seeing your fave character, at least not character assassination or anything trashing the relationship. Sometimes bad things has positive sides

[PsychoEFrost]

Xorneto killing Jean during the Morrison run isn't a "fridging". It was a Deus Exit Machina: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...eusExitMachina

"Killing a powerful character in order to raise the stakes for the other characters moving forward."

[spirit2011]

Xorneto killing Jean during the Morrison run isn't a "fridging". It was a Deus Exit Machina: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...eusExitMachina

"Killing a powerful character in order to raise the stakes for the other characters moving forward."

No. Because it didn't raised the stakes at all.

Every imprint or new era claims they've got a dead=dead rule but it wasn't even true under Shooter when it was comparatively more true. Under Quesada Steve Rogers, Bucky, Harry Osborn AND Kraven the Hunter all came back and they were major deaths. Joe Q even wanted to bring Gwen Stacy back but Brevoort talked him out of it.

Jean in the DPS gave her life to prevent herself from destroying anyone. It was heroic. Morisson just fridged her via Magneto touching her arm. Even Karen Page's death was at least a more dramatic fridging.
.

So Quesada really hated Redhead women above it all. And he likes blonds like Emma and Gwen LOL
That is a lot of people that Quesada allowed to not stay, but nothing for you Jean "Glen coco" Grey

That dead was fridging and lame. Morrison could at least put more fighting

[PsychoEFrost]

No. Because it didn't raised the stakes at all.


So Quesada really hated Redhead women above it all. And he likes blonds like Emma and Gwen LOL
That is a lot of people that Quesada allowed to not stay, but nothing for you Jean "Glen coco" Grey

That dead was fridging and lame. Morrison could at least put more fighting

It wasn't a fridging, because that implies the entire Morrison run only involved Cyclops. Which as much as you and Spidercide hate it, isn't the case.

[Snoop Dogg]

Xorneto killing Jean during the Morrison run isn't a "fridging". It was a Deus Exit Machina: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...eusExitMachina

"Killing a powerful character in order to raise the stakes for the other characters moving forward."

#NeverForgetBeastWars

[spirit2011]

It wasn't a fridging, because that implies the entire Morrison run only involved Cyclops. Which as much as you and Spidercide hate it, isn't the case.

Fridging has nothing to do qith what came before. It is all about the moment and what came after.

I don't hate Morrison's run, i just don't shill it like it was better than everything else on x-men

[CRaymond]

I think the trauma of Dark Phoenix has made redhead lady mutants a trigger. I doubt Quesada had a corporate mandate of blonds before gingers.

[PsychoEFrost]

Fridging has nothing to do qith what came before. It is all about the moment and what came after.

I don't hate Morrison's run, i just don't shill it like it was better than everything else on x-men

Except what was happening doesn't line up with that. "Fridging" means that Jean was solely killed to cause Scott distress. But the editorial intent was also to get rid of the Phoenix because of its story breaker level power.

[Hizashi]

Was Taylor allowed to do anything phoenix related? The Phoenix seems to be off-limits for adult Jean. All the retcons seem designed to strip away her connection from it.

That was a separate thing, I thought PR would reference some need that the Phoenix had of Jean, but nope. It just brought her back under its own power and then let her live after she rejected it.

Big writers can do almost anything. Whedon was a successful showrunner, the last thing he needed was money from comics. Later Psylocke and Magik also came back, so the rule only ever applied to Jean .

There was nothing to do with Jean, Morrison intention was close the door on her.

My take is that the Phoenix accepted the break up and let jean live her own life. Phoenix isn't the big bad that some writers made her

other question is why Phoenix got Jean stuck in that fake life simulation

Whedon had a specific story he wanted to tell, which didn't require Jean. Why would he bring her back? And Morrison absolutely left Jean in a place where she could be used - she performed cosmic/timeline surgery, he made her more powerful than she ever had been before.

Accepted the break-up? That's not good enough when it was willing to give her anything and she still turned it away. This wasn't Jean returning thanks to some freak accident, the PF brought her back itself.

Yeah, that fake life simulation was a real drag that hurt the pacing.

[Wiccan]

Xorneto killing Jean during the Morrison run isn't a "fridging". It was a Deus Exit Machina: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...eusExitMachina

"Killing a powerful character in order to raise the stakes for the other characters moving forward."

Nah it's not. Deux Exit Machina, as explained by this very link you posted, it's about making things harder from the team to defeat the villain. But this doesn't happen at all on Planet X. Xorn is killed by Logan immediately after he kills Jean. Literally on the next couple of panels IRRC. No stakes were raised. Their "victory" didn't get any harder to achieve. If you define fridging as killing off a female character(especially love interest) to develop the main male character... Then yeah, I think Jean was fridged. One of the main reasons she died was so for them to push a new direction for Scott with Scemma. Idk if it applies from an in-story perspective, but from an irl/editorial perspective, I think it makes sense to say that Jean was fridged.

[Can'tHexTheX]

It wasn't a fridging, because that implies the entire Morrison run only involved Cyclops. Which as much as you and Spidercide hate it, isn't the case.

To be fair, this description implies that Jean's death was about all of the characters, rather than the one in particular and his status quo moving forward after said death.

Nah it's not. Deux Exit Machina, as explained by this very link you posted, it's about making things harder from the team to defeat the villain. But this doesn't happen at all on Planet X. Xorn is killed by Logan immediately after he kills Jean. Literally on the next couple of panels IRRC. No stakes were raised. If you define fridging as killing off a female character(especially love interest) to develop the main male character... Then yeah, I think Jean was fridged. One of the main reasons she died was so for them to push a new direction for Scott with Scemma. Idk if it applies from an in-story perspective, but from an irl/editorial perspective, I think it makes sense to say that Jean was fridged.

I think even within the story, it was frigging. Jean had to die to tell Cyclops it was A-OK that he got with someone else, since she was dead and all. People can say what they want about the Morrison run, but man, some real doozies happened in it lol. The whole setup of the ending is kinda comical in its audacity.

[CRaymond]

Everything in DPS was about men in various forms of distress. I’m waiting for Harp to show up and weigh in.

[RachelGrey]

No. Because it didn't raised the stakes at all.


So Quesada really hated Redhead women above it all. And he likes blonds like Emma and Gwen LOL
That is a lot of people that Quesada allowed to not stay, but nothing for you Jean "Glen coco" Grey

That dead was fridging and lame. Morrison could at least put more fighting

I think she just meant it was a slightly different trope, but still a trope. In this case Jean went out in a violent battle with Xorn, so it wasn't entirely fridging, it really was more like a Deus Exit Machina where they killed off a powerful character to make it seem like the storyline had lasting consequences. Fridging is more if they have a scene with Jean talking to Scott and Xorn came up behind her unannounced and stabbed her in the chest so that Scott would have the motivation to defeat Xorn.

Either way both ways are still tropes, both ways are still lazy writing, and I agree that they wanted to write Jean out instead of trying to work out a story when Jean and Emma actually worked out their differences.

The majority of comic writers are male, the majority of X-book writers are male, and you can see the difference in a lot of places. Female writers are able to actually put two powerful female characters together and write them in a compelling way where they are more than just romantic rivals. A great example of this is the current run of Jessica Jones Purple Daughter, the female writer captures the voice of Jessica Jones and Emma perfectly and ends up writing a story where these two stubborn and often acerbic women can work together effectively and in a way that I would love to read more of. It's possible to do this with any of the X-Women, if you have a good writer who understands the female voice they can take characters like Jean, Emma, Storm, Rogue, Kitty, Rachel, Magik, etc.. and make them feel like individuals in a well written story who have differing personalities and points of view but are still able to get along.

The biggest trope of all is male writers who do not feel a female character can have a story of her own and they write female characters to further the story of male characters. Jean has suffered from this, Emma has suffered from this, Storm has suffered from this, Rogue has certainly suffered from this, Kitty has suffered from this, Rachel has suffered from this, and the rest of the X-Women always suffer from this.

Joe Quesada is one of the worst misogynists in charge of Marvel. Just what he did to Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson is enough to prove forever that he is a misogynist. I don't doubt that you are right about Quesada sticking his nose into the X-books to mandate which characters get featured.

[MechaJeanix]

By "bad" you mean lame death? Because it was really lame, I don't remember HCT characters referencing it.

For Morrison that claimed that he wanted to do better than Dark phoenix, it wasn't any better.
For me good deads mean: being memorable, self sacrifice and some purpose/character journey.
So dark phoenix really win for me. The best that Morrison came up with Xorn giving her some giant massive stromagnetic pulse that killed her even with the Phoenix?
Oh really, Morrison?

The quote was something about a good cause giving meaning to a bad death. I recall at the time a lot of fans (meaning us on these boards) took it as the writers way of acknowledging Jean's bad death. In story, it seems obvious that Jean died in Planet X and then was reborn in the future to do "phoenix work". Jean's death by Xorneto put her in the next story but also got her out of the picture because there was decision to pair Scott with Emma.

Morrison's run was great because for the first time the X-Men was more than some dumpy poorly written superhero book. It had themes, layers, creative dialogue and stories, and it had style. Morrison brought both style and substance to a book that desperately needed a jolt. I still think the X-Men could be so much more than it is. It should be a sci-fi book with high concepts. It should include fantasy elements and it can do these things and still retain the core elements of fear/hatred/prejudice and evolution. I miss the "voice" Morrison gave to each character he wrote. Some of the characters have never been the same since he left (I'm side eying Quentin Quire, Beak, Emma Frost..)

I think Morrison shown great respect to Jean Grey, and I feel that his version of her has been the best. It didn't upset me at the time that he killed Jean. He provided a vehicle for her return (the Phoenix). I also have admitted numerous times that I love a good death scene for Jean Grey! I can't help it. Jean dying in Scott's arms while he is shouting for Xorn was great. Her words to him "all I ever did was die on you.." I loved it. Morrison gave Jean a subplot that ran through almost his entire run. Jean hadn't got that kind of attention since Claremont's original Phoenix saga.

[spirit2011]

Except what was happening doesn't line up with that. "Fridging" means that Jean was solely killed to cause Scott distress. But the editorial intent was also to get rid of the Phoenix because of its story breaker level power.

Editorial just needed to get rid of phoenix, they did it twice without killing anyone.

editorial also wanted to Scott have some manpain

Everything in DPS was about men in various forms of distress. I’m waiting for Harp to show up and weigh in.

It still had a story for Jean that Morrison never had, so far Claremont>Morrison