USSR vs Nazi Germany vs Britain

[The Dork Knight]

Round 1: Nazi Germany vs British Empire
Round 2: Nazi Germany vs USSR
Round 3: British Empire vs USSR

What if no other allies intervened, how would a war between these nations go. Assume each is at their strongest during or just before WW2 and internal rebellion is non existent, all other countries don't have armies. Especially interested in hearing thoughts about round 3 as Churchill apparently planned an invasion of Eastern Europe after WW2. How would that go for a solo effort by Britain without American aid but say with pre war capacity, budget and full compliance from all Dominions ans territories (assume they've been promised full independence in return)

[Captain Smith]

Need more info.

1. Has Western Europe been conquered and occupied?
2. Most folks thing it is a long battle but USSR wins
3. GB has no chance of conquering Russia. Any opposition to Russia after WWII included the USA. The Dominions are trivial in fighting the USSR.

[wjowski]

Wasn't the actual USSR military kinda crappy in WW2? They're the reason Simo Häyhä has a 900 bajillion body count.

[BitVyper]

As I understand it, they started out disorganized and inexperienced with pretty awful hardware, but got a lot better as the war went on.

[The MunchKING]

Especially interested in hearing thoughts about round 3 as Churchill apparently planned an invasion of Eastern Europe after WW2.

3. GB has no chance of conquering Russia. Any opposition to Russia after WWII included the USA. The Dominions are trivial in fighting the USSR.

Didn't Operation Unthinkable involve giving Nukes to the GERMANS and hoping that the now de-Nazied Germany would side with the Allies against Russia?

So it not only couldn't be done alone, it couldn't even be done with the base allies.

[jetengine]

Didn't Operation Unthinkable involve giving Nukes to the GERMANS and hoping that the now de-Nazied Germany would side with the Allies against Russia?

So it not only couldn't be done alone, it couldn't even be done with the base allies.

No. Operation unthinkable was that America and The Uk would rearm germany with a mixture of their own kit and excess US/UK Gear, join together and assault the USSR whilst dropping at least five nuclear bombs on Russia.

[The Dork Knight]

Need more info.

1. Has Western Europe been conquered and occupied?
2. Most folks thing it is a long battle but USSR wins
3. GB has no chance of conquering Russia. Any opposition to Russia after WWII included the USA. The Dominions are trivial in fighting the USSR.

1. Assume rest of Western Europe is neutral and unoccupied

2. Even if all German forces are concentrated?

3. Even if all Commonwealth forces are comcentrated rather than fighting the Japanese all over the Pacific and Germans in North Africa?

[The Dork Knight]

And where would Imperial Japan rank among the 4? Could it beat any of the others on its own

[Captain Smith]

What do you mean by beat? Conquer or remove them from influence?

GB could not dominate the Pacific against the Japanese. The Japanese were far ahead of them in naval aviation and there is no way GB could build and support a fleet in the Pacific that could beat the Imperial Navy. Only the industrial might of the US was capable of that.

Nazi Germany against GB by itself - the Germans made mistakes against the British. Without such, they might have eliminated the RAF and then with air superiority invaded in a bloody battle. However, if France, Belgium and the Netherlands are neutral, Germany lacks good invasion ports.

The Empire again is irrelevant. They might supply the British with some divisions and squadrons (that the British have to equip with planes). They had trivial navies except for Canadian antisub escorts.

Germany and Japan fighting is a standard alternate universe conflict once both become true superpowers. As they were in WWII, nether could really affect each other.

[Beadle]

Round 1: Nazi Germany vs British Empire

This is broadly what we refer to as 1939-1941. (Well, except for Greece and a couple of others).

It wasn’t going that well for us, and our “pre war capacity” was almost nil. That’s why Neville Chamberlain’s stalling tactics were so good. They gave us a bit of time to start arming up.

[jetengine]

And where would Imperial Japan rank among the 4? Could it beat any of the others on its own

No. Japans whole schtick was shock and awe. After America refused to sign the peace treaty they wanted they'd lost, it just took time to catch up. In a one on one fight everyone is significantly larger (even the UK with the empire)

[Totoro Man]

Japan didn't have enough people to seriously contend with Britain, Germany, or the USSR. any one of these nations, at any stage in the war, could stand a good chance of defeating Japan if they were fighting on roughly even terms.

Japan beat the British through superior tactics and training in jungle warfare. they also had the benefit of fighting British commanders who basically sat on their hands and did nothing OR played right into Japanese plans. the Japanese would frequently bypass British strong points, set up roadblocks along the expected British line of retreat, and THEN attack them in the middle of the night from multiple sides. the untrained British troops basically panicked and ran right into the Japanese traps and either got taken prisoner or fought their way out with heavy losses in personnel and equipment.

in China Japan enjoyed absolute technical and organizational superiority. they had better fed and trained soldiers with more motivation and better commanders. even here, Japan eventually wore itself out and found itself unable to conquer their enemy. they expected China to negotiate after a humiliating defeat. once it became clear China wouldn't bow down to Japanese terms and keep fighting THEN Japan felt obliged to conquer resources elsewhere in the world to help finish off China.

I think Chiang Kai Shek even declared "Japan will run out of blood before they can conquer China." so their prospects against Germany or the Soviet Union is really, REALLY bad!

Japan won't enjoy the technical superiority they had over China in this sort of scenario. yes, their navy was formidable - and they could demolish the navy of any of these three nations in the OP. but that wouldn't be enough to prevail in the long run. the only one with a decent chance would be Germany if they focused mostly on superior submarine tactics... and even here, Japan had some advantages in range and firepower.

I'm not convinced that Japan could even defeat the French in Europe. they were able to defeat them so easily in Indochina because France had just fallen to the Germans, then Indochina got invaded by a better equipped and led Thailand. the French then had to settle terms with the Thai while Japan brokered the meetings. then Japan took advantage to invade both Indochina and Thailand before moving into Malaya. Japan played their hand brilliantly at a tactical level early in the war - but the problem was that they were digging their own grave at a strategic level. the highly trained and motivated soldiers that they lost in the early and middle stages of the war could simply never be replaced.

once you overcome the impossible geography - Japan's ground forces might be better matched up against Hungary, Finland, or Romania. but I don't see them beating Britain, France, Germany, or the Soviet Union on their own soil. I dunno, they might be able to defeat Poland because of their superior air force... but it wouldn't be easy.

[Totoro Man]

honestly, I don't see the Soviet Union losing this scenario. maybe if there was an imaginary coalition of German, Polish, Hungarian, Slovak, and Romanian forces attacking in 1940 they could actually win. but the Soviet Union probably had the largest army in the world at that time. sure, it was poorly led and most of their gear was obsolete but numbers count!

Great Britain couldn't do anything to the Soviet Union by itself. even if it everybody in the empire at it's disposal AND had India on a fully mobilized war time footing with well trained soldiers using Lend Lease gear. honestly, even if they got help from Nationalist China I'm not sure that could really prevail against the Soviets.

[Lord Falcon]

So by "strongest" are we assuming each side has access to all the resources they had at their strongest? Because if we're limiting them to their home territories then Germany is utterly screwed since it has no natural oil resources.

[big_adventure]

Germany lost against the USSR thanks to fighting a war on multiple fronts, AND having already fought this war for a long period of time. They were dealing with inflation rates so high that Venezuela would seem stable: in 1940, a German postage stamp cost 1DM. In 1944, it cost 50 BILLION DM. They paid employees in the morning and in the evening, because the money paid in the morning was so devalued by evening that it couldn't buy anything at all. Their logistics and supply lines were in tatters.

Not to say winning a land war in Asia is easy (it's the biggest blunder after all), but "prime" Nazi Germany could have done it.