Zeus and Other Olympians As WW Enemies

[Agent Z]

I got this idea from the discussion in another thread about Zeus taking over as Diana's main Olympian enemy. As seen here,
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...91#post4213891

I figured it would be better to develop this conversation in a different thread.

As the representation of everything the Amazons hated about patriarchal societies, Zeus would make sense as an enemy to them. This would of course change the dynamic the Amazons have with the other gods but I do think that could be an interesting idea to go with.

Heracles already has a history of enmity with the DC Amazons going all the way back to the Marston run. Zeus might represent patriarchal toxicity but Heracles is the more personal enemy of the Amazons and the one whose very name brings fear and hatred to their hearts because of what he has done to them.

Poseidon is angry and powerful, a really scary combination. In the myths, even Zeus has to watch his step around him.

[AmiMizuno]

Well Marston generally seems to have the Amazons be worshiping the female gods. Certain female gods like Hera would be nice to see her not toxic relationship with Zeus. If they were any male gods maybe Hades and Hephaestus

[Phoenixx9]

In the Golden Age, the gods would sometimes fight WW or set up others to fight her, give her tests to overcome, etc.

[WonderScott]

Done right, it could be interesting to see Diana have a conversation with dear old dad and his life choices in a future issue.

Of course, that also brings Hippolyta into the picture too.

This why I prefer the clay origin best.

I see Zeus as more of an adversary than an enemy, in the sense that he’s a wildcard regarding his actions and whether they’re benevolent or capricious.

It’s interesting that the most we’ve seen of Zeus is usually in relation to Cassie, excluding a story early in the Perez run.

I wonder if Zeus and Heracles will be reborn in GWW’s run, like Ares and Aphrodite.

[Phoenixx9]

I agree with WonderScott. The gods are often fickle and capricious and are more of an adversary in a given story than an enemy. That way, later they can be helpful too!

[AmiMizuno]

I'm curious who should be the main gods of the Amazons? I often also see that has interesting. I mean what if the Amazons are also strong is because Gods like Athena have not only trained the amazons but also ever so often issued a challenged. She doesn't killed any of them but test to see how far they have come. Maybe that's how they pick their queen. One who can take down Athena

[kjn]

Given the way the Greek pantheon is described in the original texts, most of them can be or act as enemies or antagonists for Wonder Woman (except possibly Hestia). I think Pérez missed a huge opportunity when he had Wonder Woman fight Ares in the opening of his run: the Cold War and the MAD doctrine is much more Athena gone crazy rather than Ares.

Since the gods now are poised to take a more direct role in the world in Wilson's run, I think the stage is set for Diana having strenous, exasparated, vigorous, or highly energetic exchanges with several of them.

But yes, I think that it makes sense to have a long arc similar to Rucka's first run replacing Zeus, where Zeus might start out neutral, becomes a little more friendly, but then it becomes more and more clear that he is the trouble and needs to be replaced.

[Agent Z]

Given the way the Greek pantheon is described in the original texts, most of them can be or act as enemies or antagonists for Wonder Woman (except possibly Hestia). I think Pérez missed a huge opportunity when he had Wonder Woman fight Ares in the opening of his run: the Cold War and the MAD doctrine is much more Athena gone crazy rather than Ares.

How is this an Athena story? Ares is the one who likes war.

[kjn]

How is this an Athena story? Ares is the one who likes war.

Athena likes war as well, and she is the master of strategy and the defensive war. Ares is the master of personal courage, strength, and aggression.

Homeric Hymn 11 to Athena:

Of Pallas Athena, guardian of the city, I begin to sing. Dread is she, and with Ares she loves the deeds of war, the sack of cities and the shouting and the battle. It is she who saves the people as they go to war and come back. Hail, goddess, and give us good fortune and happiness!

While she is generally quoted as a protector of cities, I do think the Cold War fits Athena to a T, and from there the step of her going insane with power is but a short step.

[daBronzeBomma]

I love the notion of Zeus himself being Diana's final endgame, but even I have to acknowledge the automatic difficulties in making Zeus an outright villain.

1. Continuity - Zeus has, to my knowledge, never once been portrayed as evil, and is currently very dead (but this is comic, so that can easily be undone)

2. Evil dads are passe - Since Diana and Zeus have briefly acknowledged their biological connection, now we could get the most predictable of family dramas ("join me, and together we could rule as father and daughter"). It'd be easier if the connection were not so direct.

3. The other Greco-Roman gods - are they evil too or merely forced accomplices for fear of Zeus' wrath? Is there a secret rebellion among some of the gods and goddesses? Which ones? Actually ... this doesn't sound so bad after all!

4. What does Ares do now? Does he play Zeus' lieutenant, the way the Duke of Deception was his own? Does he become Desaad to Zeus' Darkseid?

5. Zeus would need to be massively powered up on-panel. Like classic Odin over at Marvel. We'd need to see such feats of power from Zeus that there is no question Diana can never simply outpunch him. The DC Zeus, AFAIK, has absolutely nothing close to the Marvel Odin.

I'm not saying Zeus as Diana's primary overlord rogue can't work, but I'm saying that there are some heavy circumstances to take into account first.

[Agent Z]

I love the notion of Zeus himself being Diana's final endgame, but even I have to acknowledge the automatic difficulties in making Zeus an outright villain.
1. Continuity - Zeus has, to my knowledge, never once been portrayed as evil, and is currently very dead (but this is comic, so that can easily be undone)

See Greg Rucka’s first run and Gail Simone’s run for an evil or at least very antagonistic Zeus. Hell, I’d say Azzarello’s version very much counted.

2. Evil dads are passe - Since Diana and Zeus have briefly acknowledged their biological connection, now we could get the most predictable of family dramas ("join me, and together we could rule as father and daughter"). It'd be easier if the connection were not so direct.

Well I’m for removing that connection but that doesn’t seem to be happening any time soon.

3. The other Greco-Roman gods - are they evil too or merely forced accomplices for fear of Zeus' wrath? Is there a secret rebellion among some of the gods and goddesses? Which ones? Actually ... this doesn't sound so bad after all!

Rucka’s first run had Athena leading a rebellion against Zeus.

4. What does Ares do now? Does he play Zeus' lieutenant, the way the Duke of Deception was his own? Does he become Desaad to Zeus' Darkseid?

I’d have Ares pull a heel face turn (like he did in Perez’s run) and become semi-ally to Diana (as he was in Rucka’s first run). Maybe even have him die trying to save the Amazons from Zeus.

5. Zeus would need to be massively powered up on-panel. Like classic Odin over at Marvel. We'd need to see such feats of power from Zeus that there is no question Diana can never simply outpunch him. The DC Zeus, AFAIK, has absolutely nothing close to the Marvel Odin.

See again, Gail Simone.

[kjn]

Note that I wouldn't make Zeus the bad guy per se. More the good ruler who ends up being a petty tyrant when the people under him asks for change, and needs to be forcibly removed.

[AmiMizuno]

Ares and Athena are both war. Just the different side. Athena is the more the good side and ares is the blood sheds and the powers of tyrants. Athena does war when it’s the last option. Ares is the one who always wants it. Zeus got his leadership by tricking hades. Who is a much kinder god

[marhawkman]

Given the way the Greek pantheon is described in the original texts, most of them can be or act as enemies or antagonists for Wonder Woman (except possibly Hestia). I think Pérez missed a huge opportunity when he had Wonder Woman fight Ares in the opening of his run: the Cold War and the MAD doctrine is much more Athena gone crazy rather than Ares.

Yeah Ares is the guy with the "fight harder" approach and Athena the one with the "fight smarter" approach. MAD was about preventing war by promising such over-kill retaliation that war would be suicide.

Since the gods now are poised to take a more direct role in the world in Wilson's run, I think the stage is set for Diana having strenous, exasparated, vigorous, or highly energetic exchanges with several of them.

I think the big issue is that the writers don't use enough of the gods. WW HAS had Athena as an antagonist of sorts in some stories. Athena's main hook for being an antagonist is that her plans tend to be coldly logical and often include sacrifice plays that aren't strictly needed. In one story Athena was using a human vessel of her own creation as a disguise. Well... it was an effective disguise only because the human didn't have Athena's personality. Then when Athena was done she was gonna simply "destroy" the disguise. But WW had come to think of this as a separate person from Athena and is like "wait! No! please don't!" IE Athena created an entire person, albeit one with fake memories and stuff. At least if I'm remembering right.

It's kinda like the opener for Hercules: the legendary journeys. "The gods were petty and cruel" obviously not all the time, but they have their own agendas, and their agendas may or may not be good for humans.

[kjn]

I think the big issue is that the writers don't use enough of the gods. WW HAS had Athena as an antagonist of sorts in some stories. Athena's main hook for being an antagonist is that her plans tend to be coldly logical and often include sacrifice plays that aren't strictly needed. In one story Athena was using a human vessel of her own creation as a disguise. Well... it was an effective disguise only because the human didn't have Athena's personality. Then when Athena was done she was gonna simply "destroy" the disguise. But WW had come to think of this as a separate person from Athena and is like "wait! No! please don't!" IE Athena created an entire person, albeit one with fake memories and stuff. At least if I'm remembering right.

At the same time, a lot of posters here complain about Wonder Woman lately have mainly had to fight "public domain" villains (i.e. villains with a mythological basis). I think both your point and theirs have merit to it: Diana's "own" villains have been distinctly underdeveloped lately, and the use of the mythological villains have been largely in a rut lately, partly because her entire run since the New 52 has been dominated by restarts, poorly executed ideas, stretched or aborted storylines, and so on.

And yes, you're thinking of the Azzarello run. Except that the antagonism with Athena was brought up and resolved by a couple pages, at most, so it never really amounted to anything real. In the final reckoning, Diana mainly served as a vehicle for returning the Olympos to its "proper" order with Zeus at the top there, which left me with an ill taste in the mouth, apart from everything else about that run that left an ill taste.