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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    At the same time, a lot of posters here complain about Wonder Woman lately have mainly had to fight "public domain" villains (i.e. villains with a mythological basis). I think both your point and theirs have merit to it: Diana's "own" villains have been distinctly underdeveloped lately, and the use of the mythological villains have been largely in a rut lately, partly because her entire run since the New 52 has been dominated by restarts, poorly executed ideas, stretched or aborted storylines, and so on.

    And yes, you're thinking of the Azzarello run. Except that the antagonism with Athena was brought up and resolved by a couple pages, at most, so it never really amounted to anything real. In the final reckoning, Diana mainly served as a vehicle for returning the Olympos to its "proper" order with Zeus at the top there, which left me with an ill taste in the mouth, apart from everything else about that run that left an ill taste.
    Yeah something tells me the story of an abusive rapist being restored to his position of power and privilege after avoiding the consequences of his actions would not be well received in a post-#MeToo world. Least of all one that was told in a Wonder Woman comic.

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    One thing I always thought about is it's not just Ares trapped but Aphrodite. She is many times in the myths loyal to Ares. Both were lovers in cared. What if the Amazons first reformed patient was Aphrodite

  3. #18
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Yeah something tells me the story of an abusive rapist being restored to his position of power and privilege after avoiding the consequences of his actions would not be well received in a post-#MeToo world. Least of all one that was told in a Wonder Woman comic.
    Because the alternative is worse? Also the comics where they had someone else as king of Olympus had as their high point Apollo getting upper-cutted by Superman into space.

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Because the alternative is worse? Also the comics where they had someone else as king of Olympus had as their high point Apollo getting upper-cutted by Superman into space.
    Lets not pretend that Azzarello's run was a high point in Wonder Woman's history. And replacing Zeus had been done by Rucka in his first run anyway.

    If Wilson decides to go for an Olympian upheaval beyond what she has done already, I think she can come up with a more interesting plotline than Azzarello, and I wasn't impressed by Rucka's plot for it either outside of the battle with Medusa.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  5. #20
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Lets not pretend that Azzarello's run was a high point in Wonder Woman's history. And replacing Zeus had been done by Rucka in his first run anyway.

    If Wilson decides to go for an Olympian upheaval beyond what she has done already, I think she can come up with a more interesting plotline than Azzarello, and I wasn't impressed by Rucka's plot for it either outside of the battle with Medusa.
    well, what would be the narrative purpose of replacing Zeus?

    I mean the tenure of Apollo as king was little more than having different Olympian jerks to annoy WW and the other heroes.

  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I'm curious who should be the main gods of the Amazons? I often also see that has interesting. I mean what if the Amazons are also strong is because Gods like Athena have not only trained the amazons but also ever so often issued a challenged. She doesn't killed any of them but test to see how far they have come. Maybe that's how they pick their queen. One who can take down Athena
    Athena and Artemis should be the patron goddesses for the Amazons. I don't see Aphrodite supporting the Amazon's policy of seclusion or isolation from the outside world. Plus swearing off men is more their thing than Aphrodite.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 02-26-2019 at 10:11 AM.

  7. #22
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Is Diana still as beautiful as Aphrodite and wise as Athena, or is that no longer a thing since other goddesses give her abilities?

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    well, what would be the narrative purpose of replacing Zeus?

    I mean the tenure of Apollo as king was little more than having different Olympian jerks to annoy WW and the other heroes.
    Show that misogynistic men who took power by force don't necessarily have to hold it in perpetuity. Or show that misogynistic men upholding the patriarchy can be Nice Guys(tm), no matter how much they try to present themselves on the Good Site(tm).

    He'll be back next reboot in any case.

    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Athena and Artemis should be the patron goddesses for the Amazons. I don't see Aphrodite supporting the Amazon's policy of seclusion or isolation from the outside world.
    It was "Aphrodite's condition that we leave the man-made world and establish a new world of our own", from All-Star Comics 8. Pérez switched it over to Athena, but originally it was Aphrodite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Is Diana still as beautiful as Aphrodite and wise as Athena, or is that no longer a thing since other goddesses give her abilities?
    Probably. I think it's more likely that the old taglines aren't used as much as they were once at a time, just as Superman's "faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive" isn't seen much nowadays.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Athena and Artemis should be the patron goddesses for the Amazons. I don't see Aphrodite supporting the Amazon's policy of seclusion or isolation from the outside world. Plus swearing off men is more their thing than Aphrodite.
    Well technically this time this have a reason. Due to Ares being the person they have to make sure is locked away. One thing is why not have Aphrodite be the enemy due to her being the lover of Ares? She tries to release Ares? She lost her powers and she human be still has her immorality. One thing I always wonder is due to Ares being the father in the myths. And at least in several comics they hint that. So why not have the Amazons be the children of Aphrodite and Ares?

  10. #25
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Show that misogynistic men who took power by force don't necessarily have to hold it in perpetuity. Or show that misogynistic men upholding the patriarchy can be Nice Guys(tm), no matter how much they try to present themselves on the Good Site(tm).

    He'll be back next reboot in any case.
    That's not much of an in-universe narrative. It's more an out-of-universe reason for writing a story. That sort of thing often makes for terrible stories. Sure it sounds like a good idea to build the story around a concept like that, but if it's a bad story then the message doesn't get the attention.

  11. #26
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    That's not much of an in-universe narrative. It's more an out-of-universe reason for writing a story. That sort of thing often makes for terrible stories. Sure it sounds like a good idea to build the story around a concept like that, but if it's a bad story then the message doesn't get the attention.
    Given the underlying politics of Wonder Woman, such a plot line would be entirely appropriate. Heck, Pérez hinted at it but chickened out, Rucka ran it but focused too much on the raw power struggle, and Azzarello turned it inside out. I think it's due to do it right at some point.

    ETA: Additionally, there is a strong theme within mythology—including Greek—of the new order supplanting the old. There is even the prophecy of the her children being wiser than Zeus and replacing him.
    Last edited by kjn; 02-27-2019 at 01:52 AM.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  12. #27
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Given the underlying politics of Wonder Woman, such a plot line would be entirely appropriate. Heck, Pérez hinted at it but chickened out, Rucka ran it but focused too much on the raw power struggle, and Azzarello turned it inside out. I think it's due to do it right at some point.

    ETA: Additionally, there is a strong theme within mythology—including Greek—of the new order supplanting the old. There is even the prophecy of the her children being wiser than Zeus and replacing him.
    The "underlying politics" is not a strong reason to do something that has a major impact on the fictional universe.

    Also, "he's a misogynist" is an over simplification, and so much so that it negates the point of the discussion.

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Honestly if you want to play with Zeus. Not just him being misogynist but the fact he cheated on his wife, killed the mother of Athena. He cheated to get Olympia can be many of the story arc

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Athena and Artemis should be the patron goddesses for the Amazons. I don't see Aphrodite supporting the Amazon's policy of seclusion or isolation from the outside world. Plus swearing off men is more their thing than Aphrodite.
    Aphrodite was the original patron goddess to the Amazons.
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  15. #30
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    Personally I want to see Wonder Woman go up against Medusa more often, Typhon and his family of monsters, some Egyptian gods and goddesses, update Captain Wonder, Doctor Psycho, Silver Swan, make some more minions of the gods like the Silver Swan was.
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