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  1. #1
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Default Earth 2 Superman as the post Crisis Superman

    Someone, I don't remember who, proposed the idea of making the Earth 2 Superman the official Superman post-Crisis. The idea being that his gray hair and wrinkles are just make up and he actually stopped aging years earlier. He simply removes his make up and takes over for the now gone pre-Crisis Superman. Being a fan of the Earth 2 Superman, I always kind of wondered how that would have worked out. Anyway, what did you think of this idea? Is it something that could have worked? This would have made focusing on his past more difficult. I can see why they didn't do it but I think it would have been clever to have the "original" Superman take over and be the only one who remembers the Crisis.
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  2. #2
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    Someone, I don't remember who, proposed the idea of making the Earth 2 Superman the official Superman post-Crisis. The idea being that his gray hair and wrinkles are just make up and he actually stopped aging years earlier. He simply removes his make up and takes over for the now gone pre-Crisis Superman. Being a fan of the Earth 2 Superman, I always kind of wondered how that would have worked out. Anyway, what did you think of this idea? Is it something that could have worked? This would have made focusing on his past more difficult. I can see why they didn't do it but I think it would have been clever to have the "original" Superman take over and be the only one who remembers the Crisis.
    Chris Claremont suggested it, I believe to Marv Wolfman.

    It would have been interesting but certainly counter to the idea of making a simplied, singular universe.

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    Fantastic Member jimmy's Avatar
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    Superman the Overseer? yes - very intriguing and plausible concept as the idea has a lot of merit and the way it should have been for the progenitor / prime figure that gave birth to the whole Superhero genre. W

    Earlier stories from the 1940's do tell that Superman did have the power to re-arrange his looks, so it is possible he is in disguise today?!

    Never did care for the gray hair to show age, since it did not stand to reason as a being of Superman's overall make-up, his cell structure renews itself perfectly with NO deterioration -loss- of function in the cells of a tissue - aka - Superman is ageless, and after maturation to adulthood, any aging process would have long been arrested (stopped) and he would only mature in power.

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    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Chris Claremont suggested it, I believe to Marv Wolfman.

    It would have been interesting but certainly counter to the idea of making a simplied, singular universe.
    They also couldn't flash back to his past because it would mean flashing back to a universe that doesn't exist anymore. Claremont actually did do something like that in the mid-nineties with his one and only Superman elseworld. Superman actually started his career in 1938 and, due to his absorbing enough yellow solar radiation, his aging process stopped.
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    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
    Superman the Overseer? yes - very intriguing and plausible concept as the idea has a lot of merit and the way it should have been for the progenitor / prime figure that gave birth to the whole Superhero genre. W

    Earlier stories from the 1940's do tell that Superman did have the power to re-arrange his looks, so it is possible he is in disguise today?!

    Never did care for the gray hair to show age, since it did not stand to reason as a being of Superman's overall make-up, his cell structure renews itself perfectly with NO deterioration -loss- of function in the cells of a tissue - aka - Superman is ageless, and after maturation to adulthood, any aging process would have long been arrested (stopped) and he would only mature in power.
    I like the way it was handled in KC. He ages but it he also gets MORE powerful as he gets older. His aging never really stopped but it did slow down to a crawl. Living for over a thousand years.
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    If they hadn't wanted to tie up Earth 1 continuity with Kal-El it could have made an interesting year. Basically have Kal-L survive the Crisis and return to the Merged Earth we had up until Man of Steel.

    So a year of the Superman titles where Kal-L returned Kara Zor-El's body to Rokyn and got to meet Earth 1 survivors of Krypton, dealt with a Lois who wasn't his wife (or even romantically involved with his counterpart, and faced off against different opponents.

    We'd lose the Alexander Luthor taking the Earth 2 Kents and Superboy Prime off into "wherever" (which as an upside might have spared us their return in Infinite Crisis). Instead we'd have gotten And the implication would be that Kal-L was the template for the Byrne/Wolfman version when the final effects of Crisis settled.

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    Arguably, that idea was kinda 'adapted' with Superman Reborn, with the Post-COIE Superman taking over from the New 52 Superman after the latter's death.

    Now, hypothetically, if they did go down that route back in 1986, I'd contend that they'd eventually have to find a way to make it work in the context of the new continuity, much as they eventually had to in the case of 'Superdad'.

    Here's how I think it could have worked.

    COIE would have ended with Kal-El dying. Following the battle at the Dawn of Time and the merging of earths, the older Lois of Earth 2 ceases to exist. Kal L then gets rid of the old-age makeup and grey hair and takes his place as the Superman of this new earth. He initially believes that he is simply impersonating the real Superman of this earth. The first few issues after COIE would have Kal L settling into his 'new' life. Initially, he finds it a bit strange to be interacting with a younger Lois Lane who seems to be interested in him romantically. Or to have to contend with a new younger bald Lex Luthor who's a corporate mogul seemingly beyond the law. And other newer versions of his old enemies, as well as new enemies. Not to mention, being a member of the Justice League. But he soon finds that things are getting a little strange. He looks up the old records and finds that there are reports of Superman being around in the 1940's, fighting alongside the JSA, even on this earth.

    This would lead in to the Man of Steel miniseries. The framing device will be Kal L visiting the Fortress of Solitude - a new version in the Arctic reminiscent of the one from the Movie. Similar to what we eventually got in Rebirth, Kelex analyzes him and the timeline and explains to him his history following the Crisis.

    In the new reality, Kal L arrived on earth in the 1910's and was raised by Johnathan and Martha Kent. Following their deaths, in 1938, he made his debut as Superman. He worked at the Daily Star newspaper and Editor George Taylor. During the 1940's he was an honorary member of the Justice Society of America. In 1951, the JSA disbanded. Superman remained the only major active superhero for a while, going on increasingly weird and whimsical adventures. But he ultimately decided to quit. Maybe he decided that the world needed a chance to evolve on its own without interference from superheroes. Maybe he felt that he just needed to get away from it all, especially the publicity of being Superman. Maybe he decided he'd be more effectively if he helped out from the shadows.

    So Superman disappeared, and at some point, Clark Kent, now Editor-in-Chief of the Daily Planet, quit. Clark traveled the world, probably saving people secretely. He struggles to come to grips with his immortality, which sets him apart even further from the rest of humanity. Maybe he instinctively feels that there's something, or someone missing in his life. He moved back to Smallville at one point, pretending to either be the son of Clark Kent, or some other distant relative of the Kent family also named Clark. He befriended Lana Lang and Pete Ross, both probably related to kids he grew up with. Maybe he confides in them, or in Lana at any rate. He possibly pursues a relationship with her but doubts if it can possibly work out between them, given how much older he is chronologically and the fact that he's not sure he can be tied down to life in Smallville after all.

    So he leaves again, maybe travels for a bit, and then returns to his old city, Metropolis. And that's when a crashing space-plan causes him to reveal himself to the world again. He rescues Lois Lane and in that moment, he feels like she's the one he's been waiting for all his life. He also realizes that now that the genie is out of the bottle again, maybe its time to stop running from his purpose. So he becomes Superman again. The world has only heard vague rumors and stories, and seen old newspaper articles and newsreel footage of the Superman from the 40's, so they don't now if its the same man or his son. But they embrace him nonetheless, and a new era of heroism begins.

    We then see Clark and Lois gradually get closer over the next few years, and Superman fight various foes. He also comes into conflict with Lex Luthor, the son of Alexei Luthor, his old arch-nemesis. When he first meets Batman, he again gets a strange feeling of deja vu and is a bit shocked by Batman's initial hostility towards him. But he remains convinced that they are meant to be friends and close allies and works hard to build that relationship.

    In the present-day, after reviewing these records, Kal-L realizes that he now is the Superman of this earth, and his history is intact. But he's puzzled by why he remembers marrying Lois and spending decades with her, or why he remembers working alongside Batman in the JSA. Kelex tells him that the Crisis upset time and space and that what he's remembering are 'echoes' of 'Elseworlds'...events that could have happened but never did, at least not in this reality.

    Superman is now able to move on with his life, and he's determined, based on the vague memories he still retains of a reality where he met Lois in 1938 and eventually married her, to make the most of his relationship with Lois in the here and now.

  8. #8
    Took me a while, I'm back Netherman14's Avatar
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    I thought you were referring to Post-Flashpoint Earth 2 Superman I, who was basically the Post-Crisis guy down to a T.

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  9. #9
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Arguably, that idea was kinda 'adapted' with Superman Reborn, with the Post-COIE Superman taking over from the New 52 Superman after the latter's death.

    Now, hypothetically, if they did go down that route back in 1986, I'd contend that they'd eventually have to find a way to make it work in the context of the new continuity, much as they eventually had to in the case of 'Superdad'.

    Here's how I think it could have worked.

    COIE would have ended with Kal-El dying. Following the battle at the Dawn of Time and the merging of earths, the older Lois of Earth 2 ceases to exist. Kal L then gets rid of the old-age makeup and grey hair and takes his place as the Superman of this new earth. He initially believes that he is simply impersonating the real Superman of this earth. The first few issues after COIE would have Kal L settling into his 'new' life. Initially, he finds it a bit strange to be interacting with a younger Lois Lane who seems to be interested in him romantically. Or to have to contend with a new younger bald Lex Luthor who's a corporate mogul seemingly beyond the law. And other newer versions of his old enemies, as well as new enemies. Not to mention, being a member of the Justice League. But he soon finds that things are getting a little strange. He looks up the old records and finds that there are reports of Superman being around in the 1940's, fighting alongside the JSA, even on this earth.

    This would lead in to the Man of Steel miniseries. The framing device will be Kal L visiting the Fortress of Solitude - a new version in the Arctic reminiscent of the one from the Movie. Similar to what we eventually got in Rebirth, Kelex analyzes him and the timeline and explains to him his history following the Crisis.

    In the new reality, Kal L arrived on earth in the 1910's and was raised by Johnathan and Martha Kent. Following their deaths, in 1938, he made his debut as Superman. He worked at the Daily Star newspaper and Editor George Taylor. During the 1940's he was an honorary member of the Justice Society of America. In 1951, the JSA disbanded. Superman remained the only major active superhero for a while, going on increasingly weird and whimsical adventures. But he ultimately decided to quit. Maybe he decided that the world needed a chance to evolve on its own without interference from superheroes. Maybe he felt that he just needed to get away from it all, especially the publicity of being Superman. Maybe he decided he'd be more effectively if he helped out from the shadows.

    So Superman disappeared, and at some point, Clark Kent, now Editor-in-Chief of the Daily Planet, quit. Clark traveled the world, probably saving people secretely. He struggles to come to grips with his immortality, which sets him apart even further from the rest of humanity. Maybe he instinctively feels that there's something, or someone missing in his life. He moved back to Smallville at one point, pretending to either be the son of Clark Kent, or some other distant relative of the Kent family also named Clark. He befriended Lana Lang and Pete Ross, both probably related to kids he grew up with. Maybe he confides in them, or in Lana at any rate. He possibly pursues a relationship with her but doubts if it can possibly work out between them, given how much older he is chronologically and the fact that he's not sure he can be tied down to life in Smallville after all.

    So he leaves again, maybe travels for a bit, and then returns to his old city, Metropolis. And that's when a crashing space-plan causes him to reveal himself to the world again. He rescues Lois Lane and in that moment, he feels like she's the one he's been waiting for all his life. He also realizes that now that the genie is out of the bottle again, maybe its time to stop running from his purpose. So he becomes Superman again. The world has only heard vague rumors and stories, and seen old newspaper articles and newsreel footage of the Superman from the 40's, so they don't now if its the same man or his son. But they embrace him nonetheless, and a new era of heroism begins.

    We then see Clark and Lois gradually get closer over the next few years, and Superman fight various foes. He also comes into conflict with Lex Luthor, the son of Alexei Luthor, his old arch-nemesis. When he first meets Batman, he again gets a strange feeling of deja vu and is a bit shocked by Batman's initial hostility towards him. But he remains convinced that they are meant to be friends and close allies and works hard to build that relationship.

    In the present-day, after reviewing these records, Kal-L realizes that he now is the Superman of this earth, and his history is intact. But he's puzzled by why he remembers marrying Lois and spending decades with her, or why he remembers working alongside Batman in the JSA. Kelex tells him that the Crisis upset time and space and that what he's remembering are 'echoes' of 'Elseworlds'...events that could have happened but never did, at least not in this reality.

    Superman is now able to move on with his life, and he's determined, based on the vague memories he still retains of a reality where he met Lois in 1938 and eventually married her, to make the most of his relationship with Lois in the here and now.
    I'll be honest, I didn't like the way Rebirth handled things. It was the same convoluted mess those of us who supported New 52 were trying to get away from. Does anyone even know what his history is now? Like I said, I can understand why they didn't go this route. Precisely because it would have been too complicated. I just think that concept was interesting. I don't think it would have worked in the long run.
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I'll be honest, I didn't like the way Rebirth handled things. It was the same convoluted mess those of us who supported New 52 were trying to get away from. Does anyone even know what his history is now? Like I said, I can understand why they didn't go this route. Precisely because it would have been too complicated. I just think that concept was interesting. I don't think it would have worked in the long run.
    Well, I'd argue that Superman Reborn was handled pretty well, and all the ambiguity to do with Superman continuity right now has more to do with the generally ambiguous state of DC continuity these days.

    With a solid enough story and a focus on clarity, you can pull off even the most complex retcons. But DC, in recent years, has tended to lean towards ambiguity in matters of continuity, thinking it gives them leeway. And it does give them leeway alright...to plant the seeds for the inevitable next reboot!

    That said, there is one crucial reason why I think they may not have gone ahead with the Earth 2 Superman idea back in the early Post-COIE days. And its simply that the Earth 2 Superman wouldn't have fit in with the mainstream Superman and DCU 'brand'. That popular perception of Superman in the DCU is him being a contemporary of Batman and being a Justice League member, among other things. Having Superman be decades older than the other Justice League members and be this immortal being who's been at it for decades compared to his peers would go against all that. And then you have the trade-off between making Jimmy, Lois etc. really old vs. having them be chronologically decades younger than Superman and just a recent addition in his long life...neither of which is ideal. In my version, I tried to deal with this by having Kal L subconsciously remember the Earth 2 Lois and feel her absence from his life before meeting the modern Lois and feeling 'complete'...but its far from an ideal solution.

    Compared to that, reinstating the Pre-Flashpoint Superman was a piece of cake. He's a Justice League member, a contemporary of Batman, Flash and all the other major iconic heroes, and his continuity and timeline is actually the continuity and timeline that the rest of the DCU is moving back towards. The only real wrinkle is Jon, and they kinda managed to work around that too.

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Well, I'd argue that Superman Reborn was handled pretty well, and all the ambiguity to do with Superman continuity right now has more to do with the generally ambiguous state of DC continuity these days.

    With a solid enough story and a focus on clarity, you can pull off even the most complex retcons. But DC, in recent years, has tended to lean towards ambiguity in matters of continuity, thinking it gives them leeway. And it does give them leeway alright...to plant the seeds for the inevitable next reboot!

    That said, there is one crucial reason why I think they may not have gone ahead with the Earth 2 Superman idea back in the early Post-COIE days. And its simply that the Earth 2 Superman wouldn't have fit in with the mainstream Superman and DCU 'brand'. That popular perception of Superman in the DCU is him being a contemporary of Batman and being a Justice League member, among other things. Having Superman be decades older than the other Justice League members and be this immortal being who's been at it for decades compared to his peers would go against all that. And then you have the trade-off between making Jimmy, Lois etc. really old vs. having them be chronologically decades younger than Superman and just a recent addition in his long life...neither of which is ideal. In my version, I tried to deal with this by having Kal L subconsciously remember the Earth 2 Lois and feel her absence from his life before meeting the modern Lois and feeling 'complete'...but its far from an ideal solution.

    Compared to that, reinstating the Pre-Flashpoint Superman was a piece of cake. He's a Justice League member, a contemporary of Batman, Flash and all the other major iconic heroes, and his continuity and timeline is actually the continuity and timeline that the rest of the DCU is moving back towards. The only real wrinkle is Jon, and they kinda managed to work around that too.
    I think, to some degree, this is part of the problem the DCEU has with Batman. He's at least two decades older than the others. I think fans want everyone starting at zero. Keep in mind that these movies aren't just made for comic book fans, they're made for general audiences as well. Much as we'd like to see fanservice, I'm sure the majority of the general public has never read DKR. This is what concerns me when I hear people say they want to see a live action version of something like Red Son. How many people even know what that is? Something like Into the Spider-verse is a good example of making something for fans that isn't the "official" version of the character at the movies if you aren't that familiar with the alternate versions of the character. This is also why I think it would have been harder making the Earth 2 Superman the "official" Superman after COIE. How do you sell that to new audiences?
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  12. #12
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Arguably, that idea was kinda 'adapted' with Superman Reborn, with the Post-COIE Superman taking over from the New 52 Superman after the latter's death.

    Now, hypothetically, if they did go down that route back in 1986, I'd contend that they'd eventually have to find a way to make it work in the context of the new continuity, much as they eventually had to in the case of 'Superdad'.

    Here's how I think it could have worked.

    COIE would have ended with Kal-El dying. Following the battle at the Dawn of Time and the merging of earths, the older Lois of Earth 2 ceases to exist. Kal L then gets rid of the old-age makeup and grey hair and takes his place as the Superman of this new earth. He initially believes that he is simply impersonating the real Superman of this earth. The first few issues after COIE would have Kal L settling into his 'new' life. Initially, he finds it a bit strange to be interacting with a younger Lois Lane who seems to be interested in him romantically. Or to have to contend with a new younger bald Lex Luthor who's a corporate mogul seemingly beyond the law. And other newer versions of his old enemies, as well as new enemies. Not to mention, being a member of the Justice League. But he soon finds that things are getting a little strange. He looks up the old records and finds that there are reports of Superman being around in the 1940's, fighting alongside the JSA, even on this earth.

    This would lead in to the Man of Steel miniseries. The framing device will be Kal L visiting the Fortress of Solitude - a new version in the Arctic reminiscent of the one from the Movie. Similar to what we eventually got in Rebirth, Kelex analyzes him and the timeline and explains to him his history following the Crisis.

    In the new reality, Kal L arrived on earth in the 1910's and was raised by Johnathan and Martha Kent. Following their deaths, in 1938, he made his debut as Superman. He worked at the Daily Star newspaper and Editor George Taylor. During the 1940's he was an honorary member of the Justice Society of America. In 1951, the JSA disbanded. Superman remained the only major active superhero for a while, going on increasingly weird and whimsical adventures. But he ultimately decided to quit. Maybe he decided that the world needed a chance to evolve on its own without interference from superheroes. Maybe he felt that he just needed to get away from it all, especially the publicity of being Superman. Maybe he decided he'd be more effectively if he helped out from the shadows.

    So Superman disappeared, and at some point, Clark Kent, now Editor-in-Chief of the Daily Planet, quit. Clark traveled the world, probably saving people secretely. He struggles to come to grips with his immortality, which sets him apart even further from the rest of humanity. Maybe he instinctively feels that there's something, or someone missing in his life. He moved back to Smallville at one point, pretending to either be the son of Clark Kent, or some other distant relative of the Kent family also named Clark. He befriended Lana Lang and Pete Ross, both probably related to kids he grew up with. Maybe he confides in them, or in Lana at any rate. He possibly pursues a relationship with her but doubts if it can possibly work out between them, given how much older he is chronologically and the fact that he's not sure he can be tied down to life in Smallville after all.

    So he leaves again, maybe travels for a bit, and then returns to his old city, Metropolis. And that's when a crashing space-plan causes him to reveal himself to the world again. He rescues Lois Lane and in that moment, he feels like she's the one he's been waiting for all his life. He also realizes that now that the genie is out of the bottle again, maybe its time to stop running from his purpose. So he becomes Superman again. The world has only heard vague rumors and stories, and seen old newspaper articles and newsreel footage of the Superman from the 40's, so they don't now if its the same man or his son. But they embrace him nonetheless, and a new era of heroism begins.

    We then see Clark and Lois gradually get closer over the next few years, and Superman fight various foes. He also comes into conflict with Lex Luthor, the son of Alexei Luthor, his old arch-nemesis. When he first meets Batman, he again gets a strange feeling of deja vu and is a bit shocked by Batman's initial hostility towards him. But he remains convinced that they are meant to be friends and close allies and works hard to build that relationship.

    In the present-day, after reviewing these records, Kal-L realizes that he now is the Superman of this earth, and his history is intact. But he's puzzled by why he remembers marrying Lois and spending decades with her, or why he remembers working alongside Batman in the JSA. Kelex tells him that the Crisis upset time and space and that what he's remembering are 'echoes' of 'Elseworlds'...events that could have happened but never did, at least not in this reality.

    Superman is now able to move on with his life, and he's determined, based on the vague memories he still retains of a reality where he met Lois in 1938 and eventually married her, to make the most of his relationship with Lois in the here and now.
    Well, Kelex didn't exist but I like your suggestion and I've always liked that premise. One of the most interesting things to me was how Superman showed up at the end of CoIE essentially "between" versions, to be adjusted quicker than he could help notice. If it was Earth Two Superman I wouldn't mind. But that is after seeing how the Kal El revamp has gone for decades now, it's not such an exciting concept now.
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  13. #13
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    Alan Moore did something like that with Supreme. With the character of a previous reality rediscovering his own history.
    But it is true than the Rebirth Superman is something close to the op concept.
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  14. #14
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    There would have been one serious issue: E2 Superman having a relationship with E1 Lois would have felt weird. I don't think DC would have been willing to give that pairing up, as it is such an iconic part of his brand. Still, it would have taken a very adroit hand to get past Kal-L and Lois finding a way to fall for each other's doppelganger after losing their true loves.

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    Its a creative idea, but I wouldn't have liked it. I absolutely loathed how they did Rebirth in the beginning with Superman in a strange world, and this would have been incredibly similar in idea. These are the types of things that are fun for imaginary tales but not something I want as a canon status quo. In fact, like Rebirth, had this been done I imagine they would have very likely done their own version of a "Superman Reborn" not long after the Crisis to get rid of the idea and make him a proper denizen of the Earth.
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