Doomsday Clock #10 JS Huh?

[kcekada]

Please put them back on their own Earth. Yeah, they had more crossovers after their was only one Earth, but they were just treated as second-hand heroes thereafter. When they had their own Earth -- they were the top tier team.

[Darkcrusade25]

I think the JSA would be successful if they utilized more of the mainstream heroes:

Jay Garrick
Hawkman
Doctor Fate
Power Girl
StarGirl

I've never read JSA and I am hopefully waiting for a JSA book post DDC, because a year ago the block on LOSH and JSA was because of DDC.

[Lee Stone]

Thanks for clarifying everyone and, yeah, you may well be onto something. I mean, that something is nuts considering how popular the JSA clearly is but that's a not unfair assessment of of how these characters are seen by DC's PTB. What really shocks me, though, is this post. I was reading comics at time - though admittedly I was still a kid and had only just started - but I had no idea this was going on behind the scenes. It's especially absurd since the Justice Society were only brought back a couple of years before the book was cancelled and a bunch of the team were killed off during Zero Hour. If nothing else, it shows pretty clearly that Didio was hardly the first guy in a managerial position at DC to let his own biases get in the way of what's best for the overall line.

For more juicy behind the scenes stuff...
Look up DC's writers purge of 1968.

And you can read more about the JSA thing here.

[Doctor Kent Nelson]

I'm confused as to why you guys think that the return of the JSA is so far fetched. If I recall correctly, before the New 52, JSA was one of DC's most solid sellers. The Johns/ Goyer/ Robinson JSA went on for nearly 90 issues, as I recall, and its followup went on for another 60 issues. It was also an important, if misguided, part of the New 52 when it was retooled as Earth 2. In spite of the low selling early '90s minis (which were really good as I recall - it's been a while), the JSA has been a staple for most of the modern DC era so why wouldn't it return?

Well, I say that, but Didio's weird hatred of DC's legacy (genuinely one of the most baffling things about him) might put a stop to it. If Johns was still a major force at DC, I would say that they would definitely be returning after Doomsday Clock. Since he isn't, well, it's still a very good chance.

I'm guessing they will return but without Geoff Johns witness protection for them, I'm a little apprehensive. If Heroes in Crisis is anything to go by, Didio's fetish of killing characters may target the JSA for the next event... Zero Hour II

[Jekyll]

I'm guessing they will return but without Geoff Johns witness protection for them, I'm a little apprehensive. If Heroes in Crisis is anything to go by, Didio's fetish of killing characters may target the JSA for the next event... Zero Hour II

Funny..........yet totally believable.

[Inversed]

I'm guessing they will return but without Geoff Johns witness protection for them, I'm a little apprehensive. If Heroes in Crisis is anything to go by, Didio's fetish of killing characters may target the JSA for the next event... Zero Hour II

Something I've been wondering but never really had a good thread to ask it in, what is it in particular that makes people think its Didio's fault that everything's going down a different direction? Because all the biggest and controversial decisions I've noticed seem to be coming directly from the writers themselves, King, Bendis, Snyder, etc. Also, Jim Lee's the EIC too, so why isn't he brought up alongside him?

[Lee Stone]

Something I've been wondering but never really had a good thread to ask it in, what is it in particular that makes people think its Didio's fault that everything's going down a different direction? Because all the biggest and controversial decisions I've noticed seem to be coming directly from the writers themselves, King, Bendis, Snyder, etc. Also, Jim Lee's the EIC too, so why isn't he brought up alongside him?

I tend to think of the first month of New52. All those different writers all at the same time choosing to amp up the ultraviolence couldn't have been a coincidence.
The character hit list with Nightwing's name on it...
The trend of just exactly which characters that get killed, maimed or turned toxic...

And considering Lee's history at Marvel, he's far from blame. Didio just draws all the attention because he'll always say things to stir the pot.
I don't think I've heard one thing from Lee since him coming to DC that would get negative attention. Think he's enjoying Didio hogging the spotlight.

[Inversed]

I tend to think of the first month of New52. All those different writers all at the same time choosing to amp up the ultraviolence couldn't have been a coincidence.
The character hit list with Nightwing's name on it...
The trend of just exactly which characters that get killed, maimed or turned toxic...

And considering Lee's history at Marvel, he's far from blame. Didio just draws all the attention because he'll always say things to stir the pot.
I don't think I've heard one thing from Lee since him coming to DC that would get negative attention. Think he's enjoying Didio hogging the spotlight.

I think in the New 52's case, because it was the start and having all the books going for a similar tone, you can see how that is more editorial focused.

Currently, you have alot of new writers coming onto books, other writers gaining more control, while also moving away from a "thematic" tone since the start of Rebirth and more of an "anything goes" that makes it seem all over the place.

The only thing I think could be safely said as a creative editorial decision was what is going on with Nightwing. But all the controversial decisions from Heroes In Crisis and Batman, that's all King. Superman's changes and the new emphasis of importance of the Wonder Comics, that's all Bendis. The continued expansive Justice League stuff is all Snyder.

I do wonder why we haven't heard of much of Lee in his EIC role, we mostly just hear from him whenever he's got a new cover or he's drawing a short story.

[Lee Stone]

I think in the New 52's case, because it was the start and having all the books going for a similar tone, you can see how that is more editorial focused.

Currently, you have alot of new writers coming onto books, other writers gaining more control, while also moving away from a "thematic" tone since the start of Rebirth and more of an "anything goes" that makes it seem all over the place.

The only thing I think could be safely said as a creative editorial decision was what is going on with Nightwing. But all the controversial decisions from Heroes In Crisis and Batman, that's all King. Superman's changes and the new emphasis of importance of the Wonder Comics, that's all Bendis. The continued expansive Justice League stuff is all Snyder.

I do wonder why we haven't heard of much of Lee in his EIC role, we mostly just hear from him whenever he's got a new cover or he's drawing a short story.

The most I've heard of/from Lee was when the DC Universe Online game launched and he was hyping it up talking about how he and his kids were enjoying it.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

Please put them back on their own Earth. Yeah, they had more crossovers after their was only one Earth, but they were just treated as second-hand heroes thereafter. When they had their own Earth -- they were the top tier team.

I sympathize but I really like the legacy aspect by having them on the same earth. Plus, putting them in their own universe does kind of make them the "alternate heroes" team, which is even worse. JSA was a fairly big profile book and I see no reason why it shouldn't be again.

I think the JSA would be successful if they utilized more of the mainstream heroes:

Jay Garrick
Hawkman
Doctor Fate
Power Girl
StarGirl

I've never read JSA and I am hopefully waiting for a JSA book post DDC, because a year ago the block on LOSH and JSA was because of DDC.

Oh, man, you've got to read some of Johns' JSA - at least up to the end of Black Reign. It might just be the very best thing he ever did at DC. All of his strengths, just about none of his weaaknesses.

For more juicy behind the scenes stuff...
Look up DC's writers purge of 1968.

And you can read more about the JSA thing here.

Ooh cool, definitely gonna check both out. The comics industry is so weird. I love the behind scenes stuff.

Something I've been wondering but never really had a good thread to ask it in, what is it in particular that makes people think its Didio's fault that everything's going down a different direction? Because all the biggest and controversial decisions I've noticed seem to be coming directly from the writers themselves, King, Bendis, Snyder, etc. Also, Jim Lee's the EIC too, so why isn't he brought up alongside him?

I think in the New 52's case, because it was the start and having all the books going for a similar tone, you can see how that is more editorial focused.

Currently, you have alot of new writers coming onto books, other writers gaining more control, while also moving away from a "thematic" tone since the start of Rebirth and more of an "anything goes" that makes it seem all over the place.

The only thing I think could be safely said as a creative editorial decision was what is going on with Nightwing. But all the controversial decisions from Heroes In Crisis and Batman, that's all King. Superman's changes and the new emphasis of importance of the Wonder Comics, that's all Bendis. The continued expansive Justice League stuff is all Snyder.

I do wonder why we haven't heard of much of Lee in his EIC role, we mostly just hear from him whenever he's got a new cover or he's drawing a short story.

Ah, now this stuff is complicated. After the debacle of the New 52, it's apparently the case that Geoff Johns became the creative head of the DCU and allowed more freedom for the creators themselves. With Didio now back in play as the head honcho that may well be changing, with a stronger editorial drive once again ruling the roost. The major difference this time, though, is that between Didio and Johns, they have lined up some major a-list talent with the promise that they can basically do what they want. I'm sure Didio still pokes his head where it doesn't belong in, say, Heroes in Crisis or Bendis' Superman but, to his credit, he has smartly backed off and let them do their thing. The problem is that this is only in the micro, on individual titles, the wider direction of the DCU has less to do with the creators and there's definitely a sense that Didio's biases are still informing the overall line. The conflict between Johns and Didio may well explain why Doomsday Clock has been so delayed and it's also evident in the fact that, taken on its own, we could reasonably expect Wally West to come out of Heroes in Crisis perfectly in tact but because of Didio's approach to Wally over the past decade, it's easy to see his using HiC to once again remove Wally from the board.

In short, the dynamic between creators and the powers-that-be are complicated and we never really know how they work but the New 52 did give us a sense of what Didio's overall sensibilities are so when, say, Wally is apparently killed or the Lois and Clark marriage looks to be in trouble, it's easy to assume that these are editorial edicts from Didio rather than the writers themselves. And that perception remains even if it's not the actual case.

As for why Jim Lee isn't blamed all that often beyond those fugly New 52 designs, it's because he doesn't present himself as the face of the company in the way Didio does and his sensibilities are slightly harder to pin down. That said, I've always thought that Jim Lee was as much to blame as Didio for the aspects of the New 52 that played out more like those 90s comics that were constantly trying to play catch up with Image.

[Inversed]

Ah, now this stuff is complicated. After the debacle of the New 52, it's apparently the case that Geoff Johns became the creative head of the DCU and allowed more freedom for the creators themselves. With Didio now back in play as the head honcho that may well be changing, with a stronger editorial drive once again ruling the roost. The major difference this time, though, is that between Didio and Johns, they have lined up some major a-list talent with the promise that they can basically do what they want. I'm sure Didio still pokes his head where it doesn't belong in, say, Heroes in Crisis or Bendis' Superman but, to his credit, he has smartly backed off and let them do their thing. The problem is that this is only in the micro, on individual titles, the wider direction of the DCU has less to do with the creators and there's definitely a sense that Didio's biases are still informing the overall line. The conflict between Johns and Didio may well explain why Doomsday Clock has been so delayed and it's also evident in the fact that, taken on its own, we could reasonably expect Wally West to come out of Heroes in Crisis perfectly in tact but because of Didio's approach to Wally over the past decade, it's easy to see his using HiC to once again remove Wally from the board.

In short, the dynamic between creators and the powers-that-be are complicated and we never really know how they work but the New 52 did give us a sense of what Didio's overall sensibilities are so when, say, Wally is apparently killed or the Lois and Clark marriage looks to be in trouble, it's easy to assume that these are editorial edicts from Didio rather than the writers themselves. And that perception remains even if it's not the actual case.

As for why Jim Lee isn't blamed all that often beyond those fugly New 52 designs, it's because he doesn't present himself as the face of the company in the way Didio does and his sensibilities are slightly harder to pin down. That said, I've always thought that Jim Lee was as much to blame as Didio for the aspects of the New 52 that played out more like those 90s comics that were constantly trying to play catch up with Image.

Honestly, say what you want about his own feelings on certain characters and such, and however New 52 turned out, but I haven't seen any real sense of "stronger editorial drive" changing recently, and honestly just as much of creator driven freedom as it was during Rebirth. I think alot of people's biggest complaints regarding recent DC stories is BECAUSE of this creator driven freedom, that the writers are able to do whatever they want that they start to clash with other writers and what the audiences want.

We know Wally's death and the marriage not happening was all King's decision, and the Lois/Clark uneasy relationship and the Jon stuff is all from Bendis. And like the decisions or not, but they both have stuck up for those ideas and claiming them as their own, without Didio or anyone forcing it on them. They also don't have a reason to lie about this stuff, given the freedom DC's given them to do almost anything they want, but also speaking out about ideas that weren't theirs, like how King said the Ric Grayson Nightwing stuff he had nothing to do with.

[MajorHoy]

By the way, I finally got a chance to look over a copy of Doomsday Clock #10 when I went to the comic book shop on Saturday. (Hadn't been there since FCBD at the beginning of May.)
I had been thinking I'd actually buy a copy of issue #10 if it seemed significant enough in terms of any actual return of the JSA.

Anybody want to guess if I bought one or not?

[Jekyll]

By the way, I finally got a chance to look over a copy of Doomsday Clock #10 when I went to the comic book shop on Saturday. (Hadn't been there since FCBD at the beginning of May.)
I had been thinking I'd actually buy a copy of issue #10 if it seemed significant enough in terms of any actual return of the JSA.

Anybody want to guess if I bought one or not?

Is it safe to say that a copy of that issue is still available for another reader?

[MajorHoy]

Is it safe to say that a copy of that issue is still available for another reader?

Oodles of them were still sitting on the shelves (with both covers available).