Anyone else wish Brock!Venom would go back to just being a Spidey villain?

[Spidercide]

I wish someone found a way to restore David Michelinie's concept of a pregnant woman hosting the symbiote or Venom jumping from host to host. Eventually when Michelinie heard they wanted to make Venom an anti-hero, he created Carnage as a replacement.

I remember watching The Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon and it had my favorite version of the Symbiote saga, where Spider-Man finds the symbiote gets the black suit and the symbiote develops a personality and obsessive attachment on Peter and becomes a jilted host. To me the Symbiote was the villain, and a much better one than Eddie Brock. At least in that version there.

Having said that I liked the Venom 2018 movie tremendously and I finally got the appeal of Brock and Venom in that. And I am absolutely unironically anticipating Carnage in the sequel.

Venom hasn't really been as impressive a villain after Michelinie left, and he's maybe not been that impressive as an anti-hero until Donny Cates arrived.

The real problem is that Brock isn't much as a character. He never was.

Oh that's not true. Brock had a character but it was one that had a simple idea at it's core. Nothing wrong with that. Describes most Spider-Man villains but he did have nuances in his early appearances but he didn't bear up appearing as often as he did becuase that simple idea was 'he just wants to kill Spider-Man it's what he lives for'. A character like that is fine just needs moderation.

the OG pregnant woman Venom likely would be seen as in poor taste nowdays.

I think the movie Venom could be enjoyed cos he didn't have the context of being a villain beforehand so his anti-hero portrayal didn't feel out of place or like a betrayal on what he previously was.

Venom also was fairly impressive as a villain in Mackie's run where he went back to Venom's roots

[Spidercide]

His original motivation is gone, and bringing it back would be unfair character regression. You could come up with a new reason for him being more villainous, but it wouldn't ring true. I like the direction and effort being made into having him be his own part of the Marvel Universe to explore with his own grander lore. I also like his current dynamic with Peter as kind of uncomfortable allies. But I also say this not finding most of his stories as a villain from the Michelinie days very compelling. I don't want Venom to kind of go back to one guy's foe after they've done such an excellent job this decade specifically of convincing me he can be so much more with all the good books they've been doing since Agent Venom. So I'm hoping for a Punisher situation.

Why not have him be both though. Spider-Man's villain (the role he was created for and is iconic in) and also a solo anti-hero when removed from that context

[Spidercide]

You said it yourself though, Eddie Brock is a very unhinged individual with a very warped sense of justice and priorities. Depending on how you play that he could still very easily be a villain beyond his hatred of Spider-Man.

I don't know. I've only read the first few issues of Cates' Venom but the Symbiote mythology seems more interesting then his Eddie, who just feels like a bit of a generic dude attached to a Symbiote sometimes rather then the original Venom that he's supposed to be.

Flash makes more sense as Anti-Venom at this point.

the problem with the praise for Cates' run is that to make Eddie interesting he is essentially wilfully ignoring large patches of his history. Essentially he is writing an OC with some superficial backstory similar to Venom beforehand. So...is that really making the character interesting or it making an interesting character with similar ideas to Venom and calling it Eddie Brock.

[Spidercide]

Please, no. Venom left that role or being "just another Spider-Man's villain" long ago. Besides, Carnage would deserve that place at Spider-Man's Rogue gallery way more than Venom.

But Carnage isn't a dark reflection of Spider-Man like Brock was

[Spidercide]

I agree, in fact, other than when Eddie gave up the Symbiote and later became Anti-Venom he has always been bland IMO. Honestly, there isn't really much to Eddie beyond his past dislike of Spider-Man and his warped sense of morality.

That's not true when you really dive into who he was in ASM #300. He was a creepy, delusional psychotic stalker who was also a religious nut and a huge hypocrite.

The idea was less he is an evil Spider-Man (although he is, even his origin is similar to Peter's except no one died and he couldn't accept responsibility for his actions) and more that he is a terrifying super villain celebrity stalker. A super powered version of the kind of people who exist in real life and his warped morality was really more a case of outright hypocrisy.

E.g. in ASM #300 he murders someone pointlessly, isn't that upset about it and says its a shame when innocent lives are lost but his vengeance matters more. Nevermind though that he as a reporter was shielding a serial killer who'd killed a priest, a judge and a cop.

In a sense Michelinie's Venom was also a reflection of the Sin Eater himself. A religious lunatic who was hypocritical in their moral crusade.

Michelinie's explanation of Brock's vicious cycle of hatred and mental instability is actually hauntingly realistic, which adds up cos Michelinie has employed some real world psychology in his works before and after ASM #300

[Frontier]

the problem with the praise for Cates' run is that to make Eddie interesting he is essentially wilfully ignoring large patches of his history. Essentially he is writing an OC with some superficial backstory similar to Venom beforehand. So...is that really making the character interesting or it making an interesting character with similar ideas to Venom and calling it Eddie Brock.

I don't even see what's so interesting about him. From what I've read he doesn't seem to have much of a personality.

[Celgress]

I don't even see what's so interesting about him. From what I've read he doesn't seem to have much of a personality.

He isn't that interesting, truthfully. One of the main problems is the series of Venom mini-series we had in the 1990s' concentrated far more on wacky storylines, action, and monsters of the month than on character development or world building. There have been many, many, many missed opportunities to flesh out Eddie's character over the years. I swear he is one of the most underdeveloped characters in all of comics, which is an achievement in and of itself lol.

[Ursalink]

But Carnage isn't a dark reflection of Spider-Man like Brock was

Humm... Pardon me? Actually, HE IS! Even more sick and dark than Venom ever was. Carnage is Venom's "kid" (God, that gives me the chills!). Not to mention it shares Spider-Man's red colours, bug eyes and it's more similar physically to Spider-Man (Venom is too bulky). And you have forfotten "Spider-Carnage, or than Carnage adopted Doppelganger as his "son". (That gives me evem more chills).

[Frontier]

He isn't that interesting, truthfully. One of the main problems is the series of Venom mini-series we had in the 1990s' concentrated far more on wacky storylines, action, and monsters of the month than on character development or world building. There have been many, many, many missed opportunities to flesh out Eddie's character over the years. I swear he is one of the most underdeveloped characters in all of comics, which is an achievement in and of itself lol.

For the record, I don't think Eddie Brock is uninteresting as he's my favorite Venom, I just didn't really come off very impressed by his characterization in the first trade of Cates' Venom.

[Spidercide]

I don't even see what's so interesting about him. From what I've read he doesn't seem to have much of a personality.

issue #10 convinced me it was a good story but problematic in continuity terms

He isn't that interesting, truthfully. One of the main problems is the series of Venom mini-series we had in the 1990s' concentrated far more on wacky storylines, action, and monsters of the month than on character development or world building. There have been many, many, many missed opportunities to flesh out Eddie's character over the years. I swear he is one of the most underdeveloped characters in all of comics, which is an achievement in and of itself lol.

tbh those were so OOC you shouldn't really count them.

There are 2 Eddie brocks.

the villain and the anti-hero and to accept one you have to just wilfully ignore the other...given how the villain came first, was what he was designed and built to be and how being an anti-hero mostly was pretty forced and unconvincing its the anti-hero you shouldn’t pay attention to. OOC bullshit doesn’t count when analyzing the real character.

The real character is the guy from most of the Michelinie run and Mackie run and Venom: Dark Origin.

Anti-hero Venom was never interesting until Cates' run and he had to wilfully ignore even older anti-hero Venom runs to do it.

The villain though, no he was interesting from day 1, his backstory is simply misunderstood.


His origin in ASM #300 rendered him an interesting villain for Spider-Man but the attempts to develop him since have all done it from either the vantage point of trying to make him sympathetic or 'fix' what didn't need fixing. he was fine as he was in asm #300 he just needed to be clarified is all.

Humm... Pardon me? Actually, HE IS! Even more sick and dark than Venom ever was. Carnage is Venom's "kid" (God, that gives me the chills!). Not to mention it shares Spider-Man's red colours, bug eyes and it's more similar physically to Spider-Man (Venom is too bulky). And you have forfotten "Spider-Carnage, or than Carnage adopted Doppelganger as his "son". (That gives me evem more chills).

Does Carnage's costume look like Spider-Man? No.

Is his costume Spider-Man's old one? No.

Does it even have a spider on it? No

Does he have Spider-Man's powers? No.

Did he work as a journalist? No.

Is his body build big and bulky in contrast to Peter's leaner figure? No.

Is his personality built around making a selfish mistake that ruined his life but being unable to accept responsibility for it? No.

Does he pretend he's a protector of the innocent when he's actually not vs. Peter not banging on about being a hero but really is one? No.

Then he's not a dark reflection then is he.

By your logic the Joker, who is not a Spider-man villain, is a dark reflection of Spider-Man too. Except he isn’t.

Carnage is a dark reflection of Venom who is a dark reflection of Spider-Man.

Venom has the same bug eyes btw.

Carnage doesn’t even have the same colours. He’s red and black but sometimes just red. Peter’s suit is red and blue.

[Celgress]

For the record, I don't think Eddie Brock is uninteresting as he's my favorite Venom, I just didn't really come off very impressed by his characterization in the first trade of Cates' Venom.

I'm on the opposite side of the coin. I actually like what Cates' has done with the character and have found him boring, at times, in the past. But to each their own as I always say. Admittedly my tastes can be a bit oddball. One of the ideas I'm obsessing over right now is an AU in which Superior Spider-Man and Black Cat are a couple lol.

[Spidercide]

I'm on the opposite side of the coin. I actually like what Cates' has done with the character and have found him boring, at times, in the past. But to each their own as I always say. Admittedly my tastes can be a bit oddball. One of the ideas I'm obsessing over right now is an AU in which Superior Spider-Man and Black Cat are a couple lol.

a) I think Cates take is interesting AND the OG Michelinie Venom was an interesting portrait of a creepy and disturbed villain. the first honestly scary Spider-Man foe

b) I say ship and let ship but as a friendly reminder Doc Ock literally held her prisoner because he found her hot, kidnapped her, physically assaulted her to the point where she needed to be hospitlized and operated on, pulled out her hospital tubes to either kill her or nearly kill her just to make Spider-Man sweat, tried to kill her whilst she was helpless in the hospital again and later on as Superior callously punched her in the face (removing some teeth as I recall) and (though this didn't make any sense since she had a public ID) caused her to be imprisoned and lose the life she'd known.

[Celgress]

...b) I say ship and let ship but as a friendly reminder Doc Ock literally held her prisoner because he found her hot, kidnapped her, physically assaulted her to the point where she needed to be hospitlized and operated on, pulled out her hospital tubes to either kill her or nearly kill her just to make Spider-Man sweat, tried to kill her whilst she was helpless in the hospital again and later on as Superior callously punched her in the face (removing some teeth as I recall) and (though this didn't make any sense since she had a public ID) caused her to be imprisoned and lose the life she'd known.

Dude, I specified an AU setting as in alternate universe as in NOT ADHERING TO 616 CANON. I'm well aware my idea could never work in 616. Jeez, that I even have to explain this after putting "AU" in my first post is just mind boggling. *shakes head in dismay*

[jetengine]

No. Brock as a badguy is dull as dishwater. It just ends up retreading **** that he moved on from years ago.

[Vegeta]

As a general rule I am not a fan of character regression (Magneto or the Black Cat returning to villainy after years of fighting alongside the heroes ) but Venom just never really clicked as a hero for me. He was created to be a sinister dark reflection of Spider-Man, so when the imitation begins to lose some of that darkness, he becomes just a duller, pale version of the original. We have a fair amount of "anti-hero" Spideys as of now anyways. (Superior, Scarlet Spider, Kaine, Noir.)

I actually preferred having the symbiote move on to other villainous hosts (Like Gargan) acting somewhat like an evil version of the Captain Universe enigma force.