Should Superman Be The First Superhero?

[Lee Stone]

Wouldn't it be something if the next head of DC was to bring back the JSA, not only on their own Earth, but also separate from current continuity...

Probably picking up after the run in Adventure Comics...
And to top it off...
An annual JSA/JLA team-up in their book featuring the Satellite Era JLA...

[Frontier]

Fair, though while the character interactions are nice, I don't view much of them as very essential. If we just looked at the Earth-1 generation, we have plenty of interactions and they are generally more meaningful than interacting with the JSA generation (most of whom's meaningful interactions are with each other).

And personally I enjoy the interaction with the JSA generation and the modern generation just as much, but to each their own .

Kal-L is a simpler and more meaningful connection for Power Girl than Kal-El, who doesn't really need her. And I think there is a big sprawling tapestry if we look at just the JLA generation and beyond (extending to the Legion) along with all the stuff surrounding them like the Vertigo stuff, the mythological stuff tied to the Amazons and Atlanteans, etc that having Golden Age superheroes isn't as needed. Particularly if it's simpler for everyone if they are on their own Earth.

I like seeing Clark and Karen together in general, so I don't mind if it's not Kal-L.

The Legion isn't as directly tied to events as the JSA often are. They're pretty much the "endgame" and don't tie-in to the modern DCU as much.

And compared to the Atlantean/Amazonian mythos I'd say the Golden Age/JSA generation and history is much more fleshed out.

The Titans do have more in-story reasons for being in tandem with the JLA, and it's noticeable when it doesn't live up to what should happen.

I would say the same for the JSA, since they're the Justice League of their era.

IDK, my main exposure to the GL run is Johns, currently Morrison and some pre-Crisis stuff, but does Alan have really any relevance to the GL mythos that formed around Hal? I know his daughter dated Kyle, but isn't that pretty much it? He's always seemed superfluous in a way that Jay isn't for the Flashes. I'm not as familiar with the Atoms, but I definitely think the Hawks have become a joke/ungodly pain in the ass because of two incompatible takes that DC can never mesh. I don't think anyone can claim the two sets on each Earth were more confusing, at least not with a straight face.

Well, he's the original Green Lantern whether he's acknowledged or not, and stuff like Mark Waid's Brave and the Bold mini (and I think even GL Rebirth) acknowledged Alan's role in the mythos and relationship with Hal.

As confusing as the Hawks are, they still generally have dual League/JSA ties.

So if they struggle for relevance and can end up in limbo if DC doesn't have a drive to do anything with them/doesn't think the sales are there, why do people have the stance that the post-Crisis set up is going to keep them relevant? As long as they are being written well and resemble their classic selves, the devoted fanbase will follow them. Aside from that, they are dependent on a direction, big name writer and editorial support no matter what.

I think the thought process is that keeping them more centrally connected to the core and relevant DCU will benefit them more then being shipped off to another Earth, especially since it keeps them around and lets other writers use certain members more.

[bat39]

So since I've written a lot about the Superman (and Batman) aspect of this argument, so I thought I'd weigh in on the JSA part of it.

To my mind, the root cause of the problem is the fact that the JLA is effectively a JSA reboot. I mean, its literally the same concept, albeit with the updated Silver Age versions of the characters as opposed to the Golden Age ones. In fact that the only reason they changed the name from Society to League is because the former felt too 'old' and 'stuffy' a name for a group of superheroes. At least that's what I remember reading somewhere.

When the JSA were first brought back, they were essentially a parallel universe Justice League. Gradually though, writers started to explore the idea that they were heroes who'd been around a while, married and settled down, grown old and either retired or died. So the real point of differentiation with the League was the fact that the JSA heroes were not subject to the sliding timescale and were allowed to develop in ways that the perpetually young JLA heroes couldn't. Which is where the 'legacy' and 'elder statesmen' aspect of the JSA really started. But it was cemented once the JSA were part of the same earth, and officially became the forerunners to the Justice League generation.

To my mind, with the JLA around as essentially the post-Golden Age JSA, the JSA really only has three possible niches it can fill-

1. The JLA of a parallel universe. Basically, they are the premiere superhero team of Earth 2. This is what the early JLA/JSA team-ups from the Silver Age portrayed them as. The New 52 reboot was an attempt at the same thing.

2. The 'elder statesmen' of the DCU, representative of the long history of superheroism, and forerunners to the modern generation of heroes. This is the role they've mostly had since COIE.

3. Golden Age/WW2-era nostalgia. Basically they're the team in retro stories and period pieces.


Now to my mind, all three are valid options. But option 1 essentially means they're only significance is that they are an 'alternate JLA'. Now parallel universe books may still be successful if done well, but in a more substantive sense, the JSA will continue to play second-fiddle to the JLA. They may have their own earth to play with, but they lose out in terms of overall significance in the DCU, both in-universe and in the real world.

Option 3 again can lead to some great stories, but again, it relegates them to a niche. They are the 'WW2 heroes', confined to historical stories, essentially. Which may not necessarily be a bad thing at all. But again, it diminishes their significance in the modern DCU.

But with Option 2, the JSA is given a special relevance and status in the context of the contemporary DCU, in-universe and in a meta sense. The League may be the eternal 'here and now', and the Titans represent the future...but the JSA represent the long history and legacy of the DCU, while also acknowledging the role that the early Golden Age comics had in shaping the gargantuan superhero genre and franchises of today. They still face the challenge of not being as 'big' as the JLA. But let's face it, they never will be again. At least this way, they get to fill another niche and enjoy a status which the JLA never will.

IDK, my main exposure to the GL run is Johns, currently Morrison and some pre-Crisis stuff, but does Alan have really any relevance to the GL mythos that formed around Hal? I know his daughter dated Kyle, but isn't that pretty much it? He's always seemed superfluous in a way that Jay isn't for the Flashes. I'm not as familiar with the Atoms, but I definitely think the Hawks have become a joke/ungodly pain in the ass because of two incompatible takes that DC can never mesh. I don't think anyone can claim the two sets on each Earth were more confusing, at least not with a straight face.

Yeah, I get what you mean. The Golden Age heroes for the most part don't really have much to do with their modern counterparts. The Flashes are the obvious exception, and that's largely because Jay Garrick being relevant in some way to Barry Allen was written into the very first Barry Allen story! The idea that Barry was inspired by Jay was around long before they were part of the same universe. It was a team-up between the two Flashes that paved the way for the JLA and JSA to meet and be acknowledged as part of the same continuity - be it on separate earths or the same one. And later, as a mentor to Wally, Jay truly became an integral part of the modern Flash mythos.

Today, if we had a Green Lantern movie, I have serious doubts if Alan Scott would show up. But the Flash TV show has Jay Garrick as a fairly important supporting character, and I wouldn't be surprised if he showed up in a Flash movie at some point!

I wouldn't really count the Canaries as an example because they were essentially the same character who was retconned into becoming a mother-daughter legacy. Black Canary fundamentally is a Golden Age character - albeit one who has successfully become part of the modern DCU in more ways than one.

Hawkman is a really interesting case. And a confusing one, too boot! But Carter Hall really is another rare instance of the Golden Age version of the character persisting into the modern era and becoming the dominant version - while the mythos introduced during the Silver Age continues to play a role. And with recent developments in Venditti's run, the two takes on the character have been merged in, as far as I can tell, a pretty seamless manner.

[The Darknight Detective]

And personally I enjoy the interaction with the JSA generation and the modern generation just as much, but to each their own .

I doubt there are many people who didn't like the interaction, whether on the same Earth or via the Multiverse approach, Frontier.

[SiegePerilous02]

And personally I enjoy the interaction with the JSA generation and the modern generation just as much, but to each their own .

I'd say I enjoy it too, I'm just more attached to the interactions between the main heroes. But if they were on Earth-2 I'd still enjoy seeing them team up. I just don't think we're losing anything major by utilizing the Multiverse. Everyone would be with their people, and Barry and Jay could visit each other still like they did in the old days.

I definitely would want a Flash family, at least one that includes all three prominent Flashes, but I think the Multiverse still allows for that. And makes the Flash mythos more epic than if Jay is just in the next city over.

I like seeing Clark and Karen together in general, so I don't mind if it's not Kal-L.

I just think their interactions would be simpler if we definitively just knew she's an older, Earth-2 Kara instead of guessing what the hell her origin is this week.

And compared to the Atlantean/Amazonian mythos I'd say the Golden Age/JSA generation and history is much more fleshed out.

Yeah but the Amazon and Atlantean histories are more important for two of DC's marquee heroes than the JSA is.

Well, he's the original Green Lantern whether he's acknowledged or not, and stuff like Mark Waid's Brave and the Bold mini (and I think even GL Rebirth) acknowledged Alan's role in the mythos and relationship with Hal.

It mostly just seems like lip service to me. Alan and Jade told the JL to back off and let the GLs handle Parallax, but that was pretty much it. They vanish from the rest of the run from what I recall. Jay played a part in two of Wally's biggest runs, but Alan hasn't done much of anything in the biggest GL runs of recent years.

Like bat39 said, Jay has a good shot of getting acknowledgement in larger media with the Flashes. Alan, not so much.

As confusing as the Hawks are, they still generally have dual League/JSA ties.

Hawkman is a really interesting case. And a confusing one, too boot! But Carter Hall really is another rare instance of the Golden Age version of the character persisting into the modern era and becoming the dominant version - while the mythos introduced during the Silver Age continues to play a role. And with recent developments in Venditti's run, the two takes on the character have been merged in, as far as I can tell, a pretty seamless manner.

I think the Hawks never needed to be as confusing as they were, even with the merger. I always thought Katar and Shayera should have just been the newest incarnations after Carter and Shiera died. Is something like that happening now, or has it ever happened? I swear that Katar and Carter were sometimes acknowledged as two separate entities but also the same person....

[bat39]

I think the Hawks never needed to be as confusing as they were, even with the merger. I always thought Katar and Shayera should have just been the newest incarnations after Carter and Shiera died. Is something like that happening now, or has it ever happened? I swear that Katar and Carter were sometimes acknowledged as two separate entities but also the same person....

Mild SPOILERS for Venditti's Hawkman run

So Venditti's run reveals that Hawkman has been reincarnating across time and space, and that Katar and Shayera Hol were reincarnations of Carter and Shiera Hall. Hawkman also now has a brand new origin story that sort of subsumes all previous versions and has everything more or less make sense.

[Frontier]

I'd say I enjoy it too, I'm just more attached to the interactions between the main heroes. But if they were on Earth-2 I'd still enjoy seeing them team up. I just don't think we're losing anything major by utilizing the Multiverse. Everyone would be with their people, and Barry and Jay could visit each other still like they did in the old days.

Well, I view the JSA as main heroes too, so that probably colors my perspective .

Combined Earth or not the heroes would probably still be the closest to their respective generation, but I don't think the interconnectiveness would be as strong. Maybe it would be, but I'm not sure.

I definitely would want a Flash family, at least one that includes all three prominent Flashes, but I think the Multiverse still allows for that. And makes the Flash mythos more epic than if Jay is just in the next city over.

I understand the Multiverse is a pretty important aspect of the Flash mythos, but the mythos was also at it's strongest and most epic during Post-Crisis and on a combined Earth.

I just think their interactions would be simpler if we definitively just knew she's an older, Earth-2 Kara instead of guessing what the hell her origin is this week.

Well, Post-Crisis wise she was definitively established to be an older Earth-2 Kara by the time of Infinite Crisis and that's what DC has been sticking with since.

Yeah but the Amazon and Atlantean histories are more important for two of DC's marquee heroes than the JSA is.

Unless you retcon Hippolyta as a JSA member and acknowledge Ted's role more .

It mostly just seems like lip service to me. Alan and Jade told the JL to back off and let the GLs handle Parallax, but that was pretty much it. They vanish from the rest of the run from what I recall. Jay played a part in two of Wally's biggest runs, but Alan hasn't done much of anything in the biggest GL runs of recent years.

True, and I hope that that's corrected in the future once he comes back. I like Hal and Alan together.

Like bat39 said, Jay has a good shot of getting acknowledgement in larger media with the Flashes. Alan, not so much.

Alan was actually planned to appear in GL:TAS. They even referenced him the Steampunk Lantern episode.

[jetengine]

One of my favourite things ABOUT Alan is he's got nothing to do with the Corps beyond vague retcons to his origin.

[SiegePerilous02]

I understand the Multiverse is a pretty important aspect of the Flash mythos, but the mythos was also at it's strongest and most epic during Post-Crisis and on a combined Earth.

True it worked out that way. I think Waid, Silver Age fanboy that he is, could still have worked Jay, Max and the Quicks into his world building if we had the pre-Crisis set up though. Then we'd have Multiverse travel, speed force mythology AND growing Flash family across the realities. No reboots required!

Well, Post-Crisis wise she was definitively established to be an older Earth-2 Kara by the time of Infinite Crisis and that's what DC has been sticking with since.

Eh, we had to go through some weird hoops to get to that point unfortunately. Infinite Crisis bringing back Earth-2 (or a version of it) and never really doing anything with it has always been kind of annoying to me.

Unless you retcon Hippolyta as a JSA member and acknowledge Ted's role more .

Making Diana no longer the first costumed Wonder Woman is a whole bunch of nonsense and I'm glad that's been done away with. You don't make Wonder Woman into a legacy. DC should have gotten over themselves and just let Byrne have it be time traveling Diana like he originally wanted. All the JSAers can come before Superman and Batman, but God forbid Wonder Woman does? Like if anyone should be the exception, it should be her.

True, and I hope that that's corrected in the future once he comes back. I like Hal and Alan together.

Alan was actually planned to appear in GL:TAS. They even referenced him the Steampunk Lantern episode.

Interesting. So things may change with Alan eventually if more like minded creators get GL projects off the ground.

Mild SPOILERS for Venditti's Hawkman run

So Venditti's run reveals that Hawkman has been reincarnating across time and space, and that Katar and Shayera Hol were reincarnations of Carter and Shiera Hall. Hawkman also now has a brand new origin story that sort of subsumes all previous versions and has everything more or less make sense.

Ooh, that sounds pretty interesting actually. And neater than expected.

[DrNewGod]

Basically (to my mind) there's (always) a Time and Time Again-type event that shunts him across the timeline (heck, in some versions it could even be an accident from his younger escapades with the Legion) and he ends up, however briefly, in Gotham or New York or Metropolis (or all of them), does some of his Superman-thing(s), and is seen by those-who-would-become-the-initial-JSA.

However, they're all end up being considered (as others have suggested) as Mystery Men (and women) or some home-safe-government-conspiracy (and some may continue being active 'in the shadows'/background). Some of them are stories Clark may have heard over the years and through his pre-Superman travels.

Some may consider it to be a 'paradox' that he sort of ends up inspiring himself, but the thing with Mr Z back in the 90s kind of cemented this idea for me

It's an interesting approach. Only thing about that is, I can't see Kal-El cribbing somebody else's act, which is what it would seem like to him at the beginning of his career, as he would not be aware of his pending time jaunt. Of course, it could work if he was never Superboy, creates the identity during a time jaunt, then decides to continue it on his return to the beginning of his career in "our time." Alternatively, it could work even if he had a Superboy career, but only if Superboy was something he only did with The Legion, and The Golden Age career is something he did right at the end of his time in The Legion.

Unfortunately, all of those solutions complicate the relatively simple narrative that seems to work best for Superman. IMO, it's generally characters whose story can be concisely conveyed that tend to have the staying power.

[comicstar100]

I actually never viewed him has the first superhero. Growing up reading post Crisis DC he was always predated by the JSA so I saw Superman as the dawn of the modern age DC heroes and the Justice League.

[dswynne]

I'm conflicted about this. I don't mind Superman being the "first" but I prefer his debut (and other characters' debut) be set at the time of his publishing date (which is why I am a fan of John Byrne's GENERATION series). Where would Superman be, if he started his career in the 1930s? Would he still be active today?

[bat39]

I'm conflicted about this. I don't mind Superman being the "first" but I prefer his debut (and other characters' debut) be set at the time of his publishing date (which is why I am a fan of John Byrne's GENERATION series). Where would Superman be, if he started his career in the 1930s? Would he still be active today?

The problem with that though is that it complicates the Superman mythos needlessly. You either need to relegate the iconic supporting cast to the past and have them missing from the contemporary DCU. Or you have to make them very late additions to Superman's life.

What you're suggesting works great for alternate universe takes on the character - but not for the 'mainstream' version who's supposed to be part of the ongoing shared universe.

[SiegePerilous02]

The problem with that though is that it complicates the Superman mythos needlessly. You either need to relegate the iconic supporting cast to the past and have them missing from the contemporary DCU. Or you have to make them very late additions to Superman's life.

What you're suggesting works great for alternate universe takes on the character - but not for the 'mainstream' version who's supposed to be part of the ongoing shared universe.

I don't necessarily think it'd be the best thing to do, but I think it's possible. Again using Alan Moore's Supreme as an example, he pretty much had Superman/Supreme's Smallville cast function as his core group in the Golden Age. The Lana Lang stand in was the love interest, while in the modern day he met Diana Dane/Lois Lane. So you could have the Kents (would satisfy the desires of some to have them around for a bit in his adult life), Lana, Pete Ross, George Taylor at the Daily Star, Krypto (who would be ageless like Clark), the Legion of Superheroes showing up while he is Superboy and sporadically in his adulthood, and villains like Ultra-Humanite, Mxy, the original Metalo, some Phantom Zone criminals, and maybe the Prankster could relegated to that era as he has less use in the modern one.

Save Lois, Jimmy, Perry, Kara, and the major villains for the "now." I don't think the mythos would lose much by relegating the Smallville characters so far into the past. The Kents are often dead a lot of the time anyway, George Taylor would lose his purpose with Perry around, and does anyone really care that much about Pete? Lana is the only real loss.

[dswynne]

The problem with that though is that it complicates the Superman mythos needlessly. You either need to relegate the iconic supporting cast to the past and have them missing from the contemporary DCU. Or you have to make them very late additions to Superman's life.

What you're suggesting works great for alternate universe takes on the character - but not for the 'mainstream' version who's supposed to be part of the ongoing shared universe.

I know, which is why I am "conflicted" about this. Besides, the only reason I can think of, as to why DC wouldn't do a "generations" style narrative for real, is due to a) licensing/trademark/copyright/etc. issues, and, b) be creatively "straight-jacketed" (meaning, certain characters would, well, die).

Still, if there is one way of doing a classic Superman, it would be a series set on an alternate world, like Earth-1 for Silver-Age stories, and Earth-2 for Golden-Age stories (Earth-Zero/Prime would be whatever the DC Editorial/publishing staff wants to do TODAY). There would only be the JLA on E1, and there only would be a JSA on E2, but the placement of those teams (and associated characters) would be wherever there are story constraints are. So, on E0/P, Superman would not be the first superhero, but he would be the first of HIS generation to be active. That way, you can have a JSA and a JLA existing within the same continuity. Food for thought.

DSW