Rotten Tomatoes removes Want To See percentages for films not released yet.

[Kintor]

Yeah but no matter what happened, whether your analysis is correct or not, Star Wars is Star Wars and, to the audience it's all the same.

No matter what happens with Captain Marvel, it's like saying it's over if "Ant-Man" or "The Incredible Hulk" bombs. From most people's point of view, it's just one character and one movie. Even among people who don't like CM, only the biggest extremists are implying the MCU is finished by it. But then again, the extremists said that about Black Panther.

You've got it completely wrong, before Disney took over Star Wars used to be a prestige brand. Now though, Star Wars is just one blockbuster among many, not even particularly good ones judging by the way that Solo bombed at the hands of an uncaring general audience. This is what brand damage looks like, showing how an initial success at the box office (like with TLJ) can make the underlying problems that same movie is causing. Star Wars is in decline across the board and it's all because of TLJ.

To that end, the same can well be true for Captain Marvel as well. It's a given that Captain Marvel would probably do well opening week, in only because of the good will the MCU has fostered up until this point. Unfortunately for Disney it looks like Captain Marvel is not going to replenish any of that good will; in this highly competitive entertainment market, with video streaming and a golden age of TV dramas, a mediocre Captain Marvel simply isn't good enough. It simply remains to be seen how the brand damage from Captain Marvel might be reflected in future sales. The week 2 drop is the immediate and most obvious measure. Although, a sharp fall in merchandise sales and underperforming phase 4 movies would be a more damning assessment of Captain Marvel.

[Arsenal]

What numbers are you even basing any of those conclusions on? The movie hasn’t even made it out of opening weekend and you’ve already deemed it a failure that’ll cripple the MCU brand forever.

[Zero Hunter]

Cinemascore has limitations too. For example, it only covers wide releases... which honestly smaller movies probably will never get review bombed anyways and I've noticed that Cinemascore can also have issue if the movie is controversial and you're asking a movie goer to make a split decision right there. Hereditary being one that comes to mind. Not actually one of my favorites last year, but it likely got a D+ because the people they were polling were people expecting horror, but got a family drama. The cinemascore did not reflect the quality of the movie, but the fact that their expectations were toyed with.

Frankly anything that ranks a movie in letter or number grades is more or less useless to me.

The thing about Cinemascore is they ask you right after you have seen it. If you had asked might right as I walked out of The Last Jedi I would have said it was great. Then I really thought about it when I got home and started thinking of all the plot holes and just dumb ideas in the movie and realized the movie was not the good at all. Unless a movie is just really really great or total trash it is really hard to come up with an honest grade right after you have seen something.

[Kevinroc]

You've got it completely wrong, before Disney took over Star Wars used to be a prestige brand. Now though, Star Wars is just one blockbuster among many, not even particularly good ones judging by the way that Solo bombed at the hands of an uncaring general audience. This is what brand damage looks like, showing how an initial success at the box office (like with TLJ) can make the underlying problems that same movie is causing. Star Wars is in decline across the board and it's all because of TLJ.

To that end, the same can well be true for Captain Marvel as well. It's a given that Captain Marvel would probably do well opening week, in only because of the good will the MCU has fostered up until this point. Unfortunately for Disney it looks like Captain Marvel is not going to replenish any of that good will; in this highly competitive entertainment market, with video streaming and a golden age of TV dramas, a mediocre Captain Marvel simply isn't good enough. It simply remains to be seen how the brand damage from Captain Marvel might be reflected in future sales. The week 2 drop is the immediate and most obvious measure. Although, a sharp fall in merchandise sales and underperforming phase 4 movies would be a more damning assessment of Captain Marvel.

Talk about moving the goal posts.

(Almost every movie drops in its second weekend.)

[numberthirty]

What numbers are you even basing any of those conclusions on? The movie hasn’t even made it out of opening weekend and you’ve already deemed it a failure that’ll cripple the MCU brand forever.

For real, though.

You've got it completely wrong, before Disney took over Star Wars used to be a prestige brand. Now though, Star Wars is just one blockbuster among many, not even particularly good ones judging by the way that Solo bombed at the hands of an uncaring general audience. This is what brand damage looks like, showing how an initial success at the box office (like with TLJ) can make the underlying problems that same movie is causing. Star Wars is in decline across the board and it's all because of TLJ.

To that end, the same can well be true for Captain Marvel as well. It's a given that Captain Marvel would probably do well opening week, in only because of the good will the MCU has fostered up until this point. Unfortunately for Disney it looks like Captain Marvel is not going to replenish any of that good will; in this highly competitive entertainment market, with video streaming and a golden age of TV dramas, a mediocre Captain Marvel simply isn't good enough. It simply remains to be seen how the brand damage from Captain Marvel might be reflected in future sales. The week 2 drop is the immediate and most obvious measure. Although, a sharp fall in merchandise sales and underperforming phase 4 movies would be a more damning assessment of Captain Marvel.

Let's say we are going to entertain the idea that we can use that as any sort of a legitimately objective measure of potential future damage to the overall brand(I personally don't buy any of that for a second, but let's allow for it).

What, exactly, would be the level of drop off where you would rethink the assertion that this film will do any real damage to the overall brand?

[numberthirty]

Never mind how flawed the assertion that Captain Marvel will hurt the good will that MCU has built up to this point feels.

Even if you bought into the idea that the number of white men that decided to get their feelings hurt actually amounted to anything, there is nothing that points to that it would not be offset by good will picked up among the groups that Larson mentioned were behind what she said.

Feels rather unlikely that you would really wind up with some sort of clear deficit in said good will.

[Variant]

I know that I and several others have already had this conversation with you but it bears repeating again - TLJ marked the collapse of Star Wars as a brand. Sure, the first couple of weeks were okay at the box office but TLJ had a steep drop off, Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle (released at the same time) stayed in theatres longer. Meanwhile consumer interested in Star Wars merchandise of all kinds vanished, Hasbro actually lost money due to all the unsold Star Wars toys nobody wanted to buy. Then came Solo, the first Star Wars movie to bomb at the box office, as a direct result of the damage that TLJ did to the brand.

So then, the same analysis must be considered in regards to Captain Marvel and what it means for the future of the MCU as a franchise. We've reached a cross roads, the MCU has been running for over a decade now and concerns about the formulaic scripts and lack of creativity remain persistent criticisms. Right now the general audience is still on board for Endgame but they might well treat this movie as a jumping off point. Using Captain Marvel as the focus of the next phase of the MCU is a risky strategy, the critic reviews are mediocre and the world of mouth is toxic at best surrounded by constant controversy. As I said before, the drop in week 2 will be the first indicator as to what kind of future Captain Marvel will have.

It has a 79% on Rotten tomatoes, so the movie is critically doing well. I think it’s a fair rating after seeing the movie myself. It’s not my favorite Marvel movie by any means, but I had fun watching it considering it’s what I expected from a marvel origin movie. The twitter reception seems positive, obviously there are going to be people who don’t like it or just think it’s OK. But now we're actually seeing numbers from the box office, and despite the usual youtube channels saying “Captain Marvel is going to flop” or “SJWs are ruining marvel” or “Brie Larson hates white people.” It’s pretty much agreed now that the movie is going to be a box office success on the first weekend, so now the narrative is "Does the movie have legs?"

Certain people are moving the goalposts now. So if it drops 70% in the second weekend is the movie now a failure? If it drops 50-60% in its second weekend would the movie now be considered a success? Since that tends to be the average…. Spider man homecoming dropped 62% in second weekend no one considered that film a failure. There’s only been a few marvel movies that have dropped less than 40-50% in its second weekend.

It’s interesting people compare the critical reception of the Last Jedi and Captain Marvel. I found the anger toward TJL from the fan base was far more organic. The film received good critical reviews before release. But it was only when people saw the movie themselves that’s where the sea change started to happen. The fan base became rather divided. There were people who enjoyed it, and there were people who were upset with Rian Johnson and the choices he made in the film. There were certainly a subset of angry troll that latched onto it. But for the most part, the majority of the criticism came from fans that made fair points and were upset and even angry about what happen in the movie. I feel in Captain Marvel’s case it wasn’t organic at all, there seems to be a subset of trolls (many of the same youtubers that tried to sabotage black Panther) who misconstrued Brie Larson’s comments and really latched onto that as an excuse to sabotage the movie before anyone even saw it. There are valid criticisms of the movie, but the anger seems more derived out of people’s own political/social narrative.

[Kintor]

Talk about moving the goal posts.

(Almost every movie drops in its second weekend.)

All movies drop in their second week, by how much impacts long-term profitability. There is already talk that Captain Marvel is a heavily front-loaded movie, the reliable MCU fans are turning out opening week but getting support for repeat viewings will be trickier. In the end Captain Marvel is a mediocre film, even by the formulaic standards of the MCU. This may not be enough to leave any kind of lasting impression with the general audience.

Never mind how flawed the assertion that Captain Marvel will hurt the good will that MCU has built up to this point feels.

Even if you bought into the idea that the number of white men that decided to get their feelings hurt actually amounted to anything, there is nothing that points to that it would not be offset by good will picked up among the groups that Larson mentioned were behind what she said.

Feels rather unlikely that you would really wind up with some sort of clear deficit in said good will.

Actually, judging by the early data the audience for Captain Marvel seems to be, for the most part, middle-aged white men. This is actually something of a problem for Disney, given the emphasis of their marketing campaign. If Captain Marvel did really make a connection with the new audiences that Disney desires then this data would be skewing towards young and female but that isn't happening. Which again leads me to believe that the MCU fans are turning out like clockwork for opening week but Captain Marvel is yet to connect with the general audience.

[Powerboy]

You've got it completely wrong, before Disney took over Star Wars used to be a prestige brand. Now though, Star Wars is just one blockbuster among many, not even particularly good ones judging by the way that Solo bombed at the hands of an uncaring general audience. This is what brand damage looks like, showing how an initial success at the box office (like with TLJ) can make the underlying problems that same movie is causing. Star Wars is in decline across the board and it's all because of TLJ.

To that end, the same can well be true for Captain Marvel as well. It's a given that Captain Marvel would probably do well opening week, in only because of the good will the MCU has fostered up until this point. Unfortunately for Disney it looks like Captain Marvel is not going to replenish any of that good will; in this highly competitive entertainment market, with video streaming and a golden age of TV dramas, a mediocre Captain Marvel simply isn't good enough. It simply remains to be seen how the brand damage from Captain Marvel might be reflected in future sales. The week 2 drop is the immediate and most obvious measure. Although, a sharp fall in merchandise sales and underperforming phase 4 movies would be a more damning assessment of Captain Marvel.

You missed my point.

To the general audience, it's not "The Force Awakens", "The Last Jedi", "Solo" and "Rogue One". It's STAR WARS. Or, if you like DISNEY STAR WARS. One is all and all is one.

With the MCU, it's not that locked into it all being the same. Unless it becomes a trend, few people are going to worry that they didn't like one movie. Unless they have an axe to grind against Disney, of course. In that case, nothing will dissuade that person.

I also feel compelled to point out that, with CM, there is as of yet no evidence that the movie is going to be hurt in the least. This same nonsense happened with "Black Panther" and it has had no discernible negative impact and, even if it did, the same things that caused that negative impact have caused vastly more positive impact.

So what's the downside? CM will make 999 million instead of a billion? Or out of a billion it would have made, it will lose 100 million from the "We hate Brie Larson and maybe equality" crowd but will gain at least that much specifically for Brie Larson and/ or equality?

And, no, I don't really believe the figure will be or ever would have been a billion dollars. I'm just going with a round figure for an example. It's a good movie but it's no "Black Panther".

[WebLurker]

I know that I and several others have already had this conversation with you but it bears repeating again

Huh. Let's see if there's any new info.

TLJ marked the collapse of Star Wars as a brand.

"Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong."

Sure, the first couple of weeks were okay at the box office but TLJ had a steep drop off, Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle (released at the same time) stayed in theatres longer.

And yet TLJ was the highest-grossing movie of the year and one of the most profitable movies in the series.

Meanwhile consumer interested in Star Wars merchandise of all kinds vanished, Hasbro actually lost money due to all the unsold Star Wars toys nobody wanted to buy.

Then came Solo, the first Star Wars movie to bomb at the box office, as a direct result of the damage that TLJ did to the brand.

Care to prove that TLJ was the main reason and not the other factors (like Solo going way over budget)? If you can, you would be the first.

So then, the same analysis must be considered in regards to Captain Marvel and what it means for the future of the MCU as a franchise.

Why would I compare two very different series with very different needs?

We've reached a cross roads, the MCU has been running for over a decade now and concerns about the formulaic scripts and lack of creativity remain persistent criticisms. Right now the general audience is still on board for Endgame but they might well treat this movie as a jumping off point. Using Captain Marvel as the focus of the next phase of the MCU is a risky strategy, the critic reviews are mediocre and the world of mouth is toxic at best surrounded by constant controversy. As I said before, the drop in week 2 will be the first indicator as to what kind of future Captain Marvel will have.

You make these bold claims but ignore the evidence against it and the fact that there's not support your theories beyond your own say so. As far as I can tell, you completely wrong on all accounts and, very tellingly unable to disprove that beyond repeating you same opinions on and on again.

[Powerboy]

The thing about Cinemascore is they ask you right after you have seen it. If you had asked might right as I walked out of The Last Jedi I would have said it was great. Then I really thought about it when I got home and started thinking of all the plot holes and just dumb ideas in the movie and realized the movie was not the good at all. Unless a movie is just really really great or total trash it is really hard to come up with an honest grade right after you have seen something.

Gotta agree there. While watching TLJ, I was aware of the plot holes but brushed them off because it was enjoyable overall. Given time to think, some of them were really annoying.

But the thing with TLJ is that the annoying stuff was actually in the movie. With CM, none of the stuff people are annoyed with was really in the movie unless they are insisting they are going to read them into it no matter what and/ or are reacting to and judging the movie because of that outside stuff. In fact, after the closing credits (because nobody left until they were over because nobody wanted to miss something), as I was brushing off the popcorn, drinking some water, getting the coat on and thinking profoundly about the bathroom, I listened to the chatter and a lot of it was about how it was a good, fun movie and thank goodness all that arguing ended up having nothing to do with what was really in the movie.

[Osiris-Rex]

So if Rotten Tomatoes is removing negative reviews for Captain Marvel become they deem these to be troll reviews does that mean that if we removed the negative troll reviews for Catwoman, Catwoman would
also have a high audience score? Not sure why one movie should be favored over another. Also why isn't RT removing the favorable bomb reviews? Aren't they just as bogus as the negative reviews? For an
objective person it does seem that RT is going out of their way to put as positive a spin on Captain Marvel as they can instead of just a site where people can voice their opinion no matter what their motivation is.

[numberthirty]

Actually, judging by the early data the audience for Captain Marvel seems to be, for the most part, middle-aged white men. This is actually something of a problem for Disney, given the emphasis of their marketing campaign. If Captain Marvel did really make a connection with the new audiences that Disney desires then this data would be skewing towards young and female but that isn't happening. Which again leads me to believe that the MCU fans are turning out like clockwork for opening week but Captain Marvel is yet to connect with the general audience.

This whole thing feels like it is proving that the idea that what Larson said even remotely bugs white men is bunk. Never mind that it bugs anyone enough to hurt the brand long term.

Seems like you are saying that white men have zero problem with going to see the film. They are the audience, and the audience is turning out is what seems like fine numbers.

Where's the problem?

Where is the loss that would even need to be offset?

[Arsenal]

So if Rotten Tomatoes is removing negative reviews for Captain Marvel become they deem these to be troll reviews does that mean that if we removed the negative troll reviews for Catwoman, Catwoman would
also have a high audience score? Not sure why one movie should be favored over another. Also why isn't RT removing the favorable bomb reviews? Aren't they just as bogus as the negative reviews? For an
objective person it does seem that RT is going out of their way to put as positive a spin on Captain Marvel as they can instead of just a site where people can voice their opinion no matter what their motivation is.

If you are looking for a site to voice an opinion regardless of your agenda, RT was always the wrong place to go. They have these neat little things called forums though that would be a perfect fit for such a thing.

[sammy_hansen]

So if Rotten Tomatoes is removing negative reviews for Captain Marvel become they deem these to be troll reviews does that mean that if we removed the negative troll reviews for Catwoman, Catwoman would
also have a high audience score? Not sure why one movie should be favored over another. Also why isn't RT removing the favorable bomb reviews? Aren't they just as bogus as the negative reviews? For an
objective person it does seem that RT is going out of their way to put as positive a spin on Captain Marvel as they can instead of just a site where people can voice their opinion no matter what their motivation is.

Do you think people with agendas should be able to troll a film/website and leave avalanches of negative reviews? Like, isn't it pretty obvious what has happened here? Look at all the people posting on CBR with their thoughts and it's about a 50:50 split of positive and negative responses to Captain Marvel. This isn't even close to the numbers that were coming before the film released. Didn't RT say the IP of troll reviewers was geographically concentrated too?

What is also confusing is the people on here who implied they were never going to like it, saw it on opening night and surprisingly didn't like it. How many of these people and others all around the world would've answered that they didn't "Want To See" Captain Marvel on RT yet went on opening night anyway, thus negating that whole metric in the first place?

I really don't understand people who are trying to weaponize subjective film reviews on the Internet in their culture wars. I also realise how futile it is to argue on the Internet. But seriously, people with darkness in your hearts - go and do something with your lives.