Agents of SHIELD (SPOILERS)

[remydat]

Well I suppose bigotry is more so intolerance of another's opinion or beliefs rather than the person themselves so would you prefer I call her prejudiced or racist?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prejudice

If you have an argument for why these definitions don't apply then let me know. I suppose you can argue that Inhumans aren't a separate race but the humans that mistreat them certainly do so in part because they view them as not human and a threat to humanity. But May's dislike for them is unfair and irrational because she is blaming an entire group for something they didn't do. So that by definition is prejudiced or racist.

At the end of the day, this is just fiction so it really doesn't matter. People can love characters with disagreeable traits because it's a story. However, trying to pretend May is not being prejudiced or racist because you like her is as odd as trying to pretend Hannibal Lecter is not a murderer because you like his character. Their actions speak for themselves. We as readers of a fictional story are free to like a character even if their behavior would be inappropriate or wrong in the real world. What May did would be 100% wrong and prejudiced in the real world. I mean Hydra is a Nazi organization so acting like it's members couldn't possibly be racist or prejudiced is just odd.

[AndrewCrossett]

Everyone is prejudiced against people who are different. It's hard-wired into us as a primitive survival trait. (Anybody who's not a member of your tribe is out to kill you and take what you have.)

Many people in the modern era are able to get past that due to rationality and current senses of morality. But it's not like we've "evolved past it" or ever will, regardless of what utopians like Gene Roddenberry thought.

But it's very easy for the modern phenomenon of inclusiveness to get shattered by reality or, more likely, by the version of reality you are given access to. You only see Muslims in the news when a terrorist kills somebody, because the 99.9% of Muslims who aren't killing people aren't newsworthy. Framework May's perception of reality is shaped by Hydra, reinforced by her own anger at the Cambridge incident. Real world May probably does have some level of internalized prejudice against Inhumans, but she was in a situation where she could realize that wasn't justified.

Prejudice can be superseded and internally conquered, but not eliminated entirely unless you're a Bodhisattva.

[Forseti]

We don't really have a clue what other inhuman-related atrocities actually happened in the framework post-Cambridge that may have contributed to May's beliefs.

Jiaying's revolution, for example. Did that happen in the framework? If so, how did it end?

[remydat]

Everyone is prejudiced against people who are different. It's hard-wired into us as a primitive survival trait. (Anybody who's not a member of your tribe is out to kill you and take what you have.)

Many people in the modern era are able to get past that due to rationality and current senses of morality. But it's not like we've "evolved past it" or ever will, regardless of what utopians like Gene Roddenberry thought.

But it's very easy for the modern phenomenon of inclusiveness to get shattered by reality or, more likely, by the version of reality you are given access to. You only see Muslims in the news when a terrorist kills somebody, because the 99.9% of Muslims who aren't killing people aren't newsworthy. Framework May's perception of reality is shaped by Hydra, reinforced by her own anger at the Cambridge incident. Real world May probably does have some level of internalized prejudice against Inhumans, but she was in a situation where she could realize that wasn't justified.

Prejudice can be superseded and internally conquered, but not eliminated entirely unless you're a Bodhisattva.

Sure we all have prejudices but that doesn't excuse someone when their prejudice turns to oppression and torture. What May did was wrong. I understand why she did it. I get that we all have our prejudices but that doesn't mean her actions are not racist or prejudiced. She doesn't get to beat the **** out of Sky or take part in Mace's murder just because some inhuman kid killed people or because we all have prejudices.

We don't really have a clue what other inhuman-related atrocities actually happened in the framework post-Cambridge that may have contributed to May's beliefs.

Jiaying's revolution, for example. Did that happen in the framework? If so, how did it end?

Why would this be relevant? Are you saying if more incidents happened then May's prejudice and racism would be ok? Like if Jiaying's revolution was violent then May, Fitz and Hydra beating the living **** out of Sky and killing Mace was justified?

I guess I'm not sure what the argument is here. I think we all understand the things that contributed to May and Fitz's beliefs. However, it doesn't make them any less racist or any less wrong. Even Fitz who I defended on the basis his brainwashing was more extensive since it included changing memories of his childhood is still ultimately a racist and a murderer. The fact we understand or can sympathize with their being manipulated or their lives being rewritten doesn't change the fundamental nature of their actions.

[Forseti]

Why do you have a problem with fictional racism, prejudice and bigotry anyway? I read one diatribe after another, and I can't even figure out what your issue is.

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

Bottom line is a lot of people will have some answering to do once they come out, if they consider their actions having been against real people. I personally don't care how badly the mistreat a bunch of hyper intelligence AI and or NPC because it's just data. If they wanted me to think otherwise, I'd need some kind of link or solid proof. None exist. If anything the contract is suggested with Aida rebooting simulations whenever she wanted. Yes, the team can cry to one another about how they were mistreated, but if the show is gonna have any consistency, about redemption, they should forgive. They all forgave Daisy when Hive pulled his BS. Granted, the control is more choice based in the framework, but everyone besides May has been badly manipulated. May's kinda just cold from the start. I think the point of her stuff was to show that despite all the growth she's had, it ain't nothing but a fragile illusion. She's the calvary. She's a vicious soldier. She's dangerous.

[remydat]

Why do you have a problem with fictional racism, prejudice and bigotry anyway? I read one diatribe after another, and I can't even figure out what your issue is.

That's just it, I don't have a problem with it. I just called it what it was. May was prejudiced and racist. As she is a fictional character, I don't really care if she is broken up by it or not. However, I will not pretend she wasn't racist or prejudice just because her character is one of the stars of the show. The truth of what something is doesn't change based on whether you like the people involved or not. The only reason we are still debating it is because you guys keep trying to act like her actions were not prejudiced or racist. That's what I have a problem with. Not with a fictional character being prejudiced. But with real life human beings trying to pretend it's not prejudiced or racist.

Like you literally seemed to be arguing that if more Inhumans (insert group here) had done bad things that somehow that would make torturing and trying to kill them ok. Do I really think you feel that way? No. But I will debate you on that point because I don't think you appreciate how horrifying an argument like that sounds because you are so wrapped up in trying to defend a fictional character.

[remydat]

Bottom line is a lot of people will have some answering to do once they come out, if they consider their actions having been against real people. I personally don't care how badly the mistreat a bunch of hyper intelligence AI and or NPC because it's just data. If they wanted me to think otherwise, I'd need some kind of link or solid proof. None exist. If anything the contract is suggested with Aida rebooting simulations whenever she wanted. Yes, the team can cry to one another about how they were mistreated, but if the show is gonna have any consistency, about redemption, they should forgive. They all forgave Daisy when Hive pulled his BS. Granted, the control is more choice based in the framework, but everyone besides May has been badly manipulated. May's kinda just cold from the start. I think the point of her stuff was to show that despite all the growth she's had, it ain't nothing but a fragile illusion. She's the calvary. She's a vicious soldier. She's dangerous.

Well Mace is apparently dead and he was a real person so it will be interesting to see what happens there. Then again, as Simmons proved, none of them actually really knew Mace and Coulson pretty much treated him like **** in the real world with his power play that they will probably poor out a 40 for him and move on.

What would be interesting for them to play with is the nature of identity. So even if Fitz regains his memories, the memories of him being raised by his father don't disappear so one could argue Fitz will in fact be a different person. A man with memories of being raised under two completely separate circumstances so how exactly do those two lives reconcile? Because the fact is even if he knows one set of memories were fake, they still had an effect on him. If I had memories of being abused for example and became emotional distant as a result, the fact those memories were fake doesn't mean the emotional distance they created in me magically dissipates.

So it will be interesting to see how they address this because if they want the framework to matter as they claim then I don't see how the Fitz that returns isn't fundamentally a different Fitz than the one that entered the framework. I know people are questioning how Jemma will respond to him but I think she has it easy. She can easily rationalize it away as due to the framework. I think the more interesting scenario would be if Fitz were to reject her because he can't feel the same way about her as he once did because of the way those fake memories changed his personality and emotions in a permanent way. Not sure if the writers would really go there though but we'll see.

[Aldoxin]

This season has been phenomenal and I really hope they keep this 3-arc season routine for next year, it worked awesomly. Too bad we never got the possibly GhostRider vs Punisher they were talking about for awhile.

[Nate Grey]

damn that was a good episode. I actually didn't want it to end, and I think that's the first time that happened with me in regards to this show.

Just...wow.

[Nate Grey]

This season has been phenomenal and I really hope they keep this 3-arc season routine for next year, it worked awesomly.

Heck they may have found the way to keep the show on for another 3-4 years. A decade would be pushing it, but I'm hopeful.

Too bad we never got the possibly GhostRider vs Punisher they were talking about for awhile.

...ok not sure what that's about, but I would LOVE a Ghost Rider Netflix series that features both Johnny and Danny but with Robbie as the main character.

[McMax]

I was hoping that they would use Mace to reintroduce SHIELD into the movies. Just one scene of him in IW telling people in a meeting that SHEILD is ready to help. At least they didn't make him a villain.

[AndrewCrossett]

I would be astounded if there's ever any reference at all to AoS in the movies.

[Anarchist]

I would be astounded if there's ever any reference at all to AoS in the movies.

Yeah.

Wasn't there a quote by Kevin Feige that said the movies may affect the shows but not vice versa?

The mainstream audience only knows the movies, so references to any show would only confuse them.
As far as movie-only fans are concerned, Coulson is still a dead man.

[Immortal Weapon]

Yeah.

Wasn't there a quote by Kevin Feige that said the movies may affect the shows but not vice versa?

The mainstream audience only knows the movies, so references to any show would only confuse them.
As far as movie-only fans are concerned, Coulson is still a dead man.

Fiege said it's difficult for the shows to affect the movies because the movies have a greater degree of planning than the shows.