Agents of SHIELD (SPOILERS)

[Sub-Zero MKA]

Also, Simmons is really getting on my nerves in this arc. Can't she just be a BIT more empathic and less hysteric?
It's probably supposed to be sympathetic, but for me she just comes off as like a spoiled child crying for her way, not caring about the rest.

Me too, kind of. I was glad when Ward and Mace called her out when she said their missions didn't matter.

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

It's still just gibberish data conciousness Fitz "killed". He's still not yet beyond redemption given Aida is directly manipulating Fitz, as is his father. I mean, I don't know how memories are suppose to work here, and I can't remember Fitz origin, but if is father has been with him (or he remembers it) since he was a kid, ya it makes sense he'd go "bad". Lots of people didn't see the inhumans as people anyway, although I'm not excusing their torture. Just saying I think Fitz could still be good as long as he doesn't move against Jemma. Of course at this point I do agree he's got death flags all about him.

[AndrewCrossett]

It's still just gibberish data conciousness Fitz "killed".

It was exactly the same as if he had killed a flesh-and-blood person. Agnes was conscious and self-aware. Claiming that she was any different from her old self is purely arbitrary. And it was exactly the same to Fitz, who doesn't know he's in a simulation.

He's still not yet beyond redemption given Aida is directly manipulating Fitz, as is his father. I mean, I don't know how memories are suppose to work here, and I can't remember Fitz origin, but if is father has been with him (or he remembers it) since he was a kid, ya it makes sense he'd go "bad". Lots of people didn't see the inhumans as people anyway, although I'm not excusing their torture. Just saying I think Fitz could still be good as long as he doesn't move against Jemma. Of course at this point I do agree he's got death flags all about him.

The world outlook of Framework Fitz is such that he views evil as good, and is not redeemable unless he gets his real-world memories back. I don't accept that the fact of being manipulated absolves anyone from moral responsibility. Would have to be on a case-by-case basis.

I don't want to lose Fitz as a character, but the fact is that the Fitz we know is already gone even if he gets his memories back. He'll never be the same. FitzSimmons is toast, whether Fitz lives or not. And I can't see him continuing as a SHIELD agent. I think he'll die this season, maybe going down with a redemptive act like taking out Aida. Or maybe just dying in the street like a clueless mook. Hey, it happens. Not everyone gets a heroic death.

[Iron Fist]

Me too, kind of. I was glad when Ward and Mace called her out when she said their missions didn't matter.

Team Jemma on this one.

Her problem is she has no real external filter so she just says what she thinks, but everyone in the framework who aren't from the real world do not matter. Jemma is completely right there.

[Gaastra]

It's still just gibberish data conciousness Fitz "killed". He's still not yet beyond redemption given Aida is directly manipulating Fitz, as is his father. I mean, I don't know how memories are suppose to work here, and I can't remember Fitz origin, but if is father has been with him (or he remembers it) since he was a kid, ya it makes sense he'd go "bad". Lots of people didn't see the inhumans as people anyway, although I'm not excusing their torture. Just saying I think Fitz could still be good as long as he doesn't move against Jemma. Of course at this point I do agree he's got death flags all about him.

Fritz didn't just kill data. He ordered the attack that killed mace. Who died in the real world as well due to fritz. The woman he killed had a real mind and soul as well. That's why they were so shocked. It wasn't just data but a mind from the real world and he killed her. That's two he has killed in cold blood. I don't accept this mind wiped excuse also. Everyone has a choice in this world as we see with the others. Fritz killed them because he wanted to and gets no love from me. He is a bad guy to me at this point.

[Anarchist]

Team Jemma on this one.

Her problem is she has no real external filter so she just says what she thinks, but everyone in the framework who aren't from the real world do not matter. Jemma is completely right there.

The beings in the framework are obviously sentient, so yes, they do matter, physical body in the real world or not.

It's just blatant protagonist centered morality on Jemma's part.

[Immortal Weapon]

Team Jemma on this one.

Her problem is she has no real external filter so she just says what she thinks, but everyone in the framework who aren't from the real world do not matter. Jemma is completely right there.

If they didn't matter than Jemma wouldn't have the need to protect Mac. I would love to see her try to convince framework Mac that his daughter isn't real and she's meaningless.

[remydat]

Team Jemma on this one.

Her problem is she has no real external filter so she just says what she thinks, but everyone in the framework who aren't from the real world do not matter. Jemma is completely right there.

They matter because we are the sum total our our experiences. For Mace and Mac those people are real because they think they are. The thoughts, feelings and emotions they feel from interacting with them are real.

They don't matter to Jemma because she went into the framework knowing what it was. So as a scientist she is being obtuse because she should know better than anyone the impact these lives can have on a mind that doesn't realize it's a simulation.

[remydat]

Fritz didn't just kill data. He ordered the attack that killed mace. Who died in the real world as well due to fritz. The woman he killed had a real mind and soul as well. That's why they were so shocked. It wasn't just data but a mind from the real world and he killed her. That's two he has killed in cold blood. I don't accept this mind wiped excuse also. Everyone has a choice in this world as we see with the others. Fritz killed them because he wanted to and gets no love from me. He is a bad guy to me at this point.

This makes the assumption they are dead which doesn't necessarily make sense. Agnes doesn't have a body and there is no reason for her data to not be still within the framework. And we never see Mace officially die in the real world.

Further May is the one that actually executed the order so she is just as responsible for Mace dying as Fitz. She had a choice like anyone else as she can't use the following orders defense as by that logic Fitz is just following the orders of Madame Hydra and Ward was just following the orders of Garrett.

So May and Fitz are responsible for killing people real and not real. If he is condemned then so is May. May essentially became a racist/bigot by blaming all inhumans for what a single girl did. And when frankly it was her decision to spare the kid.

And frankly Coulson is condemed for standing by and letting kids be taken out of his class by Hydra and for ratting out Simmons. It's just a plot contrivance that none of those people died but surely those weren't the first students taken out of his class. And at the time they made these decisions none of them knew who was real or fake so that is no excuse. At the time they made the decision they thought all those people were real.

[Chris Lang]

Radcliffe might be a candidate for being rescued via an LMD. (Too bad they destroyed the one they already had.) I had thought they would extract Agnes from the Framework and put her in Aida's body, but I guess that's off the table now unless they somehow have Agnes backed up somewhere.

Someone will probably have the idea to put Hope's personality into an LMD version of her, but I doubt Mack would be too keen on playing with his non-sentient robot daughter. Though there's something very Bradbury-esque about that scenario.

I'm still holding out the possibility that the Framework is a real alternate Earth within the multiverse. That's probably the only possibility of a happy ending for Mack, unless he can get his memories wiped.

True. The way this is going, we might end up seeing something very similar to the classic Superman story 'For the Man Who Has Everything', where Mongul causes Superman to live in a dream world where Krypton never exploded and Jor-El is thoroughly discredited. One of the most heartbreaking scenes in any Superman story EVER is when he tells his son in the Dream World that he loves him but "I don't think you're real".

It was agonizing enough for Superman. But Mac ... could Mac get through this without going crazy? Of course, we're also worried about Fitz's sanity, too.

[Immortal Weapon]

When it comes to Mac I worry he won't want to leave the framework.

[Saturius]

I'm with remydat. I'm sure the show will depict it differently, but I just don't consider any of this a big deal. Agnes is dead. Her body died. I guess it's great they put her brain scan in the framework, but if the data is there, how can she be truly "dead" in this simulation. I don't consider that murder. And I think it's dumb to say that Fitz deserves death or redemption. Who cares if through manipulation and a few butterfly effects, that he's a "murderer" in the framework. It's not reality and it's not what happened or reflects his experiences and actual life in the real world. I wouldn't beat myself up because in a possible reality if a few things changed I could be a miserable mean piece of shit or something. Again, I know the show is gonna wring some angst out of this, but I think it's dumb.

I guess the biggest problem/debate about this issue boils down to what one considers reality and the nature of conciousness/life. It can get kinda metaphysical and philosophical trying to decipher those things and all that crap I guess so I can see how one would think that the framework "matters." For me though it doesn't. I was with Jemma. In the show I know what's the real reality( Non Hydra world) and what the fake one is (Hydra dominated world). I'm sure it's gonna mess Fitz up psychologically if he's freed from it but I don't think he needs some silly redemption over what he's done in the framework.

It' also unclear that for people who are actually alive in the real world (i.e Mace) but die in the framework, if their brain shuts down to accept their perceived death. Did Mace go brain dead? If so, could Aida simply revive him or do something similar to what Radcliffe did to bring May back to life? We need more answers about the interactions and rules between the framework and reality.

[remydat]

Well to be clear, I'm not saying it's not a big deal. I'm saying if someone wants to blame Fitz then you have to blame all of them based on what they knew at the time not what the viewer knows.

By that rationale who is real or fake is irrelevant because Fitz, May, and Coulson had no knowledge of that when they were making decisions and they have all committed heinous acts IMO.

If you are going to blame someone based on meta knowledge then frankly May is the worst. Fitz has the excuse of being raised by what appears to be an evil father so he's been brainwashed since he was a kid. You give anyone Fitz's father and they will stand a higher chance of becoming a deplorable person if that father drills into you during your formative years how being a douche is desirable.

May literally had nothing that forced her to become a bigot or racist except her inability to deal with her own mistakes as an adult. Instead of blaming herself for the tragedy as she was directly involved in the decision, she blamed countless inhumans that had nothing to do with the incident. She really has no excuse for that bigotry and frankly May always had that in her as she was trending towards hating inhumans in the real world until Daisy and Andrew made her change. She was clearly hostile to inhumans before the framework.

[AndrewCrossett]

Who cares if through manipulation and a few butterfly effects, that he's a "murderer" in the framework.

Well, I'm pretty sure the writers hope we care, or their story is a failure.

He's going to care. Jemma is going to care. Coulson is going to care.

Not that I'm really keen to see a redemption storyline on the show. I'm really kind of tired of them, TBH.

[remydat]

Well you can be remorseful or guilty without seeking redemption.

More than redemption I think it's more about understanding the flaws in their character that allowed them to do the heinous things they did and hopefully address them.