Make Them Matter Challenge!

[Michael Watkins]

We all have characters that we might consider to be "favorites." but what about characters you hate or avoid? something I do when I really don't like a character is pick up their backissues and try to find something about them to like. but that's a lot of work/investment. so, for the purposes of this thread, I simply challenge you to take a character that you don't like and alter/develop them so that you at least appreciate their existence. only rule is that you can't just kill or retire them. go nuts.

[Midnight_v]

We all have characters that we might consider to be "favorites." but what about characters you hate or avoid? something I do when I really don't like a character is pick up their backissues and try to find something about them to like. but that's a lot of work/investment. so, for the purposes of this thread, I simply challenge you to take a character that you don't like and alter/develop them so that you at least appreciate their existence. only rule is that you can't just kill or retire them. go nuts.

Huh. Sometime threads are hit or miss. I think this is a good idea though so... BUMP for great justice.

My first go to thought was "D-Man" but looking at it they made him Scourge, which was a good idea but they brain washed him to do it. He's gotten a lot of unsuable character development over the years frankly
Thus, I think I'd have rather seen him make that choice out of neglect and isolation from the community hero at large.
I think the Scourge of supervillians matters but sadly that means basically making marvel kill properties or creating a host of low level supers for him to kill.
That being said its a tough topic, for me because there are less characters that I "HATE" and more that I'm just apathetic about. Apathy towards a character is what pushes towards, irrelevance, and being forgotten.

[Michael Watkins]

Huh. Sometime threads are hit or miss. I think this is a good idea though so... BUMP for great justice.

My first go to thought was "D-Man" but looking at it they made him Scourge, which was a good idea but they brain washed him to do it. He's gotten a lot of unsuable character development over the years frankly
Thus, I think I'd have rather seen him make that choice out of neglect and isolation from the community hero at large.
I think the Scourge of supervillians matters but sadly that means basically making marvel kill properties or creating a host of low level supers for him to kill.
That being said its a tough topic, for me because there are less characters that I "HATE" and more that I'm just apathetic about. Apathy towards a character is what pushes towards, irrelevance, and being forgotten.

characters you are apathetic about are also on-topic. and, yeah, it's never a good idea to start a thread on new comic day. but I wanted to get that idea out of my head/use it as a placeholder in case I have an idea for revamping a character later.

[KOSLOX]

I'm a broken record on this, but I think the X-Men should be modelled more on "radical" groups from the 1960s like BPP or even SNCC under Stokely Carmichael. They should primarily be based out of M-Town, and be viewed as dangerous outlaws by society at large and fiercely supported in M-Towns around the US. Major superhero teams could maintain a shaky understanding with them, but couldn't outwardly support them. They'd occupy a status similar to unregistered heroes during the SHRA days.

Additionally, X-Force would be the more proactive branch and be sometimes at odds with the X-Men. They would essentially be Magneto's brotherhood.

Also, I'd make sure the X-Men were always the most diverse team in comics, and have intersectionality be an important issue that fuels intergroup tension. Part of the "soap opera" would navigating this messy coalition of competing interests to ensure safety and betterment of mutants.

Sometimes, being a mutant might take a backseat to another social issue, or vice versa, and that would cause problems with other team members.

[Personamanx]

I really don't know what it would take for me to pick up, and read a Captain America or Black Panther comic. Love the films, but if you were to show me a random issue starring either I wouldn't have much to say. They're the only major characters from Marvel that I really have no opinion on in the comics. So apathy over active dislike I suppose.

I'm pretty sure any idea I'd have to make them more appealing as characters or magazine features has already been done at some point. Maybe I just don't think they're visually engaging on a printed page, maybe some radically re-designed outfits would help.

[Michael Watkins]

I really don't know what it would take for me to pick up, and read a Captain America or Black Panther comic. Love the films, but if you were to show me a random issue starring either I wouldn't have much to say. They're the only major characters from Marvel that I really have no opinion on in the comics. So apathy over active dislike I suppose.

I'm pretty sure any idea I'd have to make them more appealing as characters or magazine features has already been done at some point. Maybe I just don't think they're visually engaging on a printed page, maybe some radically re-designed outfits would help.

one of my current issues with Black Panther is that T'challa is rarely the focus of the book; development-wise. every month I sample the book. it's always about Shuri or characters that i'm not familiar with. have no idea what is going on with the space fantasy Wakanda either. the only time I've been real invested was Christopher Priest's version. but even that was told from Everett K Ross' point of view. as for the cinematic universe, I thought that T'challa only came across well in Civil War. even my mother thought that T'challa wasn't that super in his solo movie. the Dora Milaje seemed just as skilled and superhuman in some of those fight scenes. so back to the books, I think T'challa works best as part of a team (he needs other leader types to play off of) or as a cameo in his role as king. otherwise, he definitely needs a mission; spy thriller stuff. I like to see him flex his abilities (physical and mental). I also like it when he's getting involved where he shouldn't be.
on another note, i'm really enjoying Captain America's book right now. I read his book for the villains though. I like it when Steve is outmatched and has to overcome unbeatable odds.

[Michael Watkins]

I'm a broken record on this, but I think the X-Men should be modelled more on "radical" groups from the 1960s like BPP or even SNCC under Stokely Carmichael. They should primarily be based out of M-Town, and be viewed as dangerous outlaws by society at large and fiercely supported in M-Towns around the US. Major superhero teams could maintain a shaky understanding with them, but couldn't outwardly support them. They'd occupy a status similar to unregistered heroes during the SHRA days.

Additionally, X-Force would be the more proactive branch and be sometimes at odds with the X-Men. They would essentially be Magneto's brotherhood.

Also, I'd make sure the X-Men were always the most diverse team in comics, and have intersectionality be an important issue that fuels intergroup tension. Part of the "soap opera" would navigating this messy coalition of competing interests to ensure safety and betterment of mutants.

Sometimes, being a mutant might take a backseat to another social issue, or vice versa, and that would cause problems with other team members.

I don't get why there are so few mutants of color. they focus more on gender and sexual orientation representation. i'm good with that too. i'm just wondering why Bishop and Storm are basically the only names that come to mind when someone mentions black mutants. it's only recently that they started depicting Storm with hair that's not naturally straight. and Bishop's some used to be Puerto rican turned aborigine from a future where race means nothing. where are the Synchs and Skins? they could explain it as melanin defends against the x-gene or something. but i'd like an explanation.

anyways, yeah I basically agree that the mutants should be way more grass roots/underground/radicalized. I think the first mistake was the shiar tech. it's one thing to all be crowded in a mansion. from the outside looking in, they'd appear to be elites. but it's the alien tech that kind of puts them over the top. they seem to have unlimited funds most of the time. i'm good with Xavier having some kind of network set up (ex. well connected mutant sympathizers). i'm even good with him using his telepathy to become some kind of investment genius. but I think it's just lazy that they have all of that alien tech. it could just as easily been Forge-made equipment. I think they should rely more on other mutants. and I think that they should mainly wear civilian clothing (and not designer stuff). those uniforms should be for special occasions (there to keep their faces out of the news). I miss when Professor X wasn't even known to be a mutant.

[Omega Alpha]

I'm a broken record on this, but I think the X-Men should be modelled more on "radical" groups from the 1960s like BPP or even SNCC under Stokely Carmichael. They should primarily be based out of M-Town, and be viewed as dangerous outlaws by society at large and fiercely supported in M-Towns around the US. Major superhero teams could maintain a shaky understanding with them, but couldn't outwardly support them. They'd occupy a status similar to unregistered heroes during the SHRA days.

Additionally, X-Force would be the more proactive branch and be sometimes at odds with the X-Men. They would essentially be Magneto's brotherhood.

Also, I'd make sure the X-Men were always the most diverse team in comics, and have intersectionality be an important issue that fuels intergroup tension. Part of the "soap opera" would navigating this messy coalition of competing interests to ensure safety and betterment of mutants.

Sometimes, being a mutant might take a backseat to another social issue, or vice versa, and that would cause problems with other team members.

The problem is that Marvel is too conservative and risk-averse for this, probably in part for not being so diverse in writing and editorial staff. Look how they treated Cyclops over the years for straying just a little from the standard of X-men and other heroes.

[PCN24454]

I don't get why there are so few mutants of color. they focus more on gender and sexual orientation representation. i'm good with that too. i'm just wondering why Bishop and Storm are basically the only names that come to mind when someone mentions black mutants. it's only recently that they started depicting Storm with hair that's not naturally straight. and Bishop's some used to be Puerto rican turned aborigine from a future where race means nothing. where are the Synchs and Skins? they could explain it as melanin defends against the x-gene or something. but i'd like an explanation.

anyways, yeah I basically agree that the mutants should be way more grass roots/underground/radicalized. I think the first mistake was the shiar tech. it's one thing to all be crowded in a mansion. from the outside looking in, they'd appear to be elites. but it's the alien tech that kind of puts them over the top. they seem to have unlimited funds most of the time. i'm good with Xavier having some kind of network set up (ex. well connected mutant sympathizers). i'm even good with him using his telepathy to become some kind of investment genius. but I think it's just lazy that they have all of that alien tech. it could just as easily been Forge-made equipment. I think they should rely more on other mutants. and I think that they should mainly wear civilian clothing (and not designer stuff). those uniforms should be for special occasions (there to keep their faces out of the news). I miss when Professor X wasn't even known to be a mutant.

Storm and Bishop are far from the only ones. They're just the only one that people remember/care about. It's extremely hard for new characters to develop staying power.

[KOSLOX]

The problem is that Marvel is too conservative and risk-averse for this, probably in part for not being so diverse in writing and editorial staff. Look how they treated Cyclops over the years for straying just a little from the standard of X-men and other heroes.

One of my favorite moment in modern X-Men comics is when Sam Guthrie said "I'm free, white, and twenty-one!" in Fraction's run. I bought that issue JUST because of that scene, and I wish X-Men did stuff like that more often.

It makes sense Sam would say something like that and would be oblivious about it. I really, really don't like how being a mutant overrides all other lived experience and social hierarchy at Marvel. There should be constant struggles within the X-Men about racism, sexism, classism, religious intolerance, etc precisely because it's a disparate group who have very different upbringings being bound together due to essentially one common factor.

I'd love to see what someone could do with an X-Men MAX book, clear vision, and free reign to craft a reworked mythology.

Additionally, I think Dazzler should be one of the biggest characters in the MU since if we look real life, "rebel", sub, and counter-culture (i.e. minority, and non mainstream white) are typically some of the biggest driving forces in culture and art. In the MU Dazzler would be like Madonna/Sex Pistols/NWA/Louis Armstrong.

[chamber-music]

I don't really have strong enough feelings about characters that I feel I would hate or avoid them.

Fictional characters are as good as the imagination of the writers. Plenty of talented writers have come along and made me interested in characters I previously never cared about. Both DC and Marvel have some good lesser known characters that could be more popular if they were in the hands of interesting writers that did something good or different with them.

Personally I prefer characters that have to struggle and over come the odds to be victorious. I also like heroes who make hard decisions and sacrifice something. I like there to be stakes and consequences.

I don't like heroes that presented as being the best at everything, make no mistakes and always do the right thing when it is easy to do the right thing.

X-Men have had a lot of non-white or biracial characters such as Skin, Sunspot, M, Synch, Frenzy, Cecilia Reyes, Maggot, Jubilee, Surge, Armor, Bling, Bishop, Storm, Darwin, Sunfire, Thunderbird, Warpath, Mirage, Forge, Xorn, Karma, Dust, Gentle, Daken, Prodigy, Indra, Oya, Dr Kavita Rao, Zero, Mondo and Risque.

Why they aren't making use of more of these characters is the question

I think I recall hearing Lila Cheney was supposed to be a Mutant Madonna type.

[Michael Watkins]

Storm and Bishop are far from the only ones. They're just the only one that people remember/care about. It's extremely hard for new characters to develop staying power.

sure. but who am I missing (that isn't dead)? Nezhno seems like he has potential. but a lot of the others are more defined by their powers as opposed to their character traits (imo). they don't seem to have purpose.

[Michael Watkins]

One of my favorite moment in modern X-Men comics is when Sam Guthrie said "I'm free, white, and twenty-one!" in Fraction's run. I bought that issue JUST because of that scene, and I wish X-Men did stuff like that more often.

It makes sense Sam would say something like that and would be oblivious about it. I really, really don't like how being a mutant overrides all other lived experience and social hierarchy at Marvel.

hmm. I agree to a point. but if we're talking about Sam specifically, he's had more exposure to other races, ethnicities, and cultures to not be oblivious. his formative years were spent with a black Brazilian, a Korean individual, and a native American. might have worked in the early days when they were at the school. since then, we've seen that Sam's family routinely interact with black people. they've witnessed the link between anti-mutant prejudice and race-based prejudice. but, yeah, there should be more scenes like this. these characters are only human.

[Michael Watkins]

I don't really have strong enough feelings about characters that I feel I would hate or avoid them.

then pick a character that you think that you could improve.

I think I recall hearing Lila Cheney was supposed to be a Mutant Madonna type.

eh. more like mutant pat benatar.

[JudicatorPrime]

The characters that I usually don't care for inevitably wind up becoming very popular. They get on quite well without my input -- and being the outsider/nonconformist that I am, that's perfectly fine. I see no point in tweaking them just so that I can join the phalanx.