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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    I feel the same way.
    Ditto. Having folks like the Sentry around, whose power seems to be 'power of a gajillion exploding hyperboles' when even a tiny percentage of that would destroy the entire solar system if he so much as sneezed, just goes right past ludicrous speed straight to plaid. (Literally, 'to plaid' in that the definition of his power level is utterly *meaningless.* It doesn't just trivialize the other characters, or the situation they're in, it reduces the character themselves to an absurdity.) And with those characters lounging around, with the power to do anything the writer chooses, their *choice* to do nothing of consequence when things like Incursions happen just makes them look like enormous jerks, not heroes.

    Plus, when they are hanging around, perfectly viable heroic characters like Captain America or Hawkeye or Black Panther are either written as Batman-level ridiculously competent, or completely useless.

    I'm just not a fan of the 'Superman' power set (or power level) at Marvel. Characters like Thor are one thing, because he's *not* a 'Superman clone,' and Hyperion and Gladiator are *deliberate* Superman clones, but when it comes down to Star Brand or Sentry or even the Blue Marvel, I'm less forgiving of them being basically Superman with zaps (even if some of them, like Blue Marvel, are interesting characters who are, IMO, held back from being used by their excessive power levels, something I fear happening to Monica Rambeau, if she keeps getting powered up...).

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalai View Post
    Hickman's Avengers are kind of over powered to be fair, you have Starbrand who takes on Hulk, Hyperion, Thor at the same time.
    You have Ex Nihilos and Abyss who are both Thor level, Nightmask, hard to tell...
    I loved Hickman's Avengers. That's what the Ultimates should have been like, albeit with more intellect and more diversity.

    The Marvel Universe is a system of tiers, just like with any other ecological system. At the top of it are some really nasty, self-serving, immoral blokes who would otherwise run roughshod over the multiverse, but for the likes of a group like Hickman's Avengers to hold them in check. And I'd even go one better and establish that there has always been a group like that around. The Earth's solar system is barely an infant. Long before humanity formed on Earth, there were extraterrestrial civilizations that were already billions upon billions of years old. Someone or some group had to protect the multiverse in the early years. Bring me tales of that powerful group. And sure, let Hickman write it.
    Last edited by JudicatorPrime; 03-04-2019 at 09:30 PM.

  3. #63
    Mighty Member Steroid's Avatar
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    Thor, Blue Marvel, Sentry and Hyperion

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Ditto. Having folks like the Sentry around, whose power seems to be 'power of a gajillion exploding hyperboles' when even a tiny percentage of that would destroy the entire solar system if he so much as sneezed, just goes right past ludicrous speed straight to plaid. (Literally, 'to plaid' in that the definition of his power level is utterly *meaningless.* It doesn't just trivialize the other characters, or the situation they're in, it reduces the character themselves to an absurdity.) And with those characters lounging around, with the power to do anything the writer chooses, their *choice* to do nothing of consequence when things like Incursions happen just makes them look like enormous jerks, not heroes.

    Plus, when they are hanging around, perfectly viable heroic characters like Captain America or Hawkeye or Black Panther are either written as Batman-level ridiculously competent, or completely useless.

    I'm just not a fan of the 'Superman' power set (or power level) at Marvel. Characters like Thor are one thing, because he's *not* a 'Superman clone,' and Hyperion and Gladiator are *deliberate* Superman clones, but when it comes down to Star Brand or Sentry or even the Blue Marvel, I'm less forgiving of them being basically Superman with zaps (even if some of them, like Blue Marvel, are interesting characters who are, IMO, held back from being used by their excessive power levels, something I fear happening to Monica Rambeau, if she keeps getting powered up...).
    Now to each their own as what style of heroes you prefer I can't change that but if you are bother by perfectly viable heroes looking useless with more powerful heroes around ask yourself why Hawkeye,Captain America or Black Widow don't wear upgraded suits from Iron Man or Black Panther. The reason isn't set in in-universe logic but out of universe editorial choice keeping heroes in "their most popular form." Heroes like Hawkeye and Black widow are stupid not because they lack skills to be a hero but because they are using lesser equipment when there is logical better. Most Avengers are *choosing* to be stupid why aren't they wearing low budget Black Panther style costumes with strongest cheap metal available instead of vibranium? Characters are already trivialize once it show they are viable supersuits in the world. Anyways it is interesting to what people want to turn off their logic for when dealing with comics

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Ditto. Having folks like the Sentry around, whose power seems to be 'power of a gajillion exploding hyperboles' when even a tiny percentage of that would destroy the entire solar system if he so much as sneezed, just goes right past ludicrous speed straight to plaid. (Literally, 'to plaid' in that the definition of his power level is utterly *meaningless.* It doesn't just trivialize the other characters, or the situation they're in, it reduces the character themselves to an absurdity.) And with those characters lounging around, with the power to do anything the writer chooses, their *choice* to do nothing of consequence when things like Incursions happen just makes them look like enormous jerks, not heroes.

    Plus, when they are hanging around, perfectly viable heroic characters like Captain America or Hawkeye or Black Panther are either written as Batman-level ridiculously competent, or completely useless.

    I'm just not a fan of the 'Superman' power set (or power level) at Marvel. Characters like Thor are one thing, because he's *not* a 'Superman clone,' and Hyperion and Gladiator are *deliberate* Superman clones, but when it comes down to Star Brand or Sentry or even the Blue Marvel, I'm less forgiving of them being basically Superman with zaps (even if some of them, like Blue Marvel, are interesting characters who are, IMO, held back from being used by their excessive power levels, something I fear happening to Monica Rambeau, if she keeps getting powered up...).
    One of the things that makes Thor work is that, as powerful as he is on Earth, on Asgard where he spends half his time he is surrounded by people who all are of greater than human strength and durability. That means you've got a huge source of super-powered foes to work with, any of whom can invade Earth and bring the threat to the MU's beloved New York, which is important as any comic that doesn't spend a lot of time in NY tends to be seen as a non-essential backwater. Thor also has a well developed cast of characters, from friends to foes, to family, and his comic has very much its own vibe.

    The trouble with a lot of the newer powerful characters is that they are essentially trying to make a name for themselves by standing out in a crowd, and the easiest way to do that is to up their power-level so that they are dominant in whatever crowd of heroes they are surrounded by. This is the X-Men's problem, where every hero has had to go OMEGA(!!!) in order to keep up with the Jones. You are getting heroes who have fantastic power-levels but who's personal mythology lacks the necessary infrastructure to support them in a comic of their own. That's what really should be limiting the power-level of the hero - how powerful would you want to write your hero if they were given a comic book of their own, one in which they were not allowed to use established heroes or villains to slap down as a fast and cheap way of gaining instant credibility. If you make your hero an ultra-powerful Superman clone you make him far too powerful to make fighting ordinary human crooks and terrorists exciting, you then need to create a steady stream of ultra-powerful villains to challenge your hero, and explain why there are so many of these guys around when nobody has noticed them before. And if your guy/gal is based in NY you have to explain why the Avengers or FF aren't slapping down these ground-shaking menaces. Back before the whole event madness, mid-tier heroes were the norm for a good reason: they fitted more easily into the MU structure, and they were easier to write for. Nowadays you might as well create a ultra-powerful uberman, because everyone else is; it doesn't make for good comic though, imo.

    Compare Thor to one of my favourite heroes who debuted in the Avengers: Wonder Man. He was popular and used the classic trope of potentially very powerful rookie having to learn the ropes on the job, with stories promising that once he achieved his potential he would be great hero, a star of the team. Once Wonder Man overcame his fear, and his strength and durability stopped being unknown factors and became defined (not quite as strong as Thor) Wondy had only two ways to go - become the team's star powerhouse, or become a joke character/screw-up. Because once you're that powerful you're going to dominate the team if you're written to your potential, and if the current writer doesn't want you as the star then you're either booted off the team, or you're written as having personality problems that limit your effectiveness on the team. Even when Wonder Man got his own comic, he simply didn't have enough unique villains of his power-level to fight, didn't have a strong enough supporting cast, and didn't have a strong enough gimmick to really build on his popularity from the Avengers.

    I think there needs to be a comic like Marvel Premiere or Marvel Spotlight used to be, somewhere where non-A-list characters can have a four-issue arc where they develop the infrastructure needed to make them stand-alone heroes, rather than creating a hero designed to throw shade on other heroes by way of their outrageous power-levels but lacking in the ideas that would make them self-supporting. Because at the moment there's always the risk that a Sentry-level character is basically a leach on a team, skimming the cream off the top whilst not contributing anything of real worth. Of course a Marvel Spotlight book only work best if Marvel went back to selling comics in places the general public frequented rather than comic shops, and I don't know how likely that is to happen.

  6. #66
    Mighty Member Thor-El's Avatar
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    To me there are the heroes introduced by Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, John Buscema and all the greats that started the company. And then there is all the crap that was introduced in the 90s and beyond. Not that there are some greats here and there during those years, specially where Claremont and Byrne is concerned but there is a lot of new writers that wanted to create the "best, strongest character that there has ever been" and invalidate what had come before. To me it doesn't works like that.

    Watch next year the creation of Ultra-Sentroid with the power of one million exploding galaxies created by young new sensation Writer-X!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by Thor-El; 03-05-2019 at 07:29 AM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    The trouble with a lot of the newer powerful characters is that they are essentially trying to make a name for themselves by standing out in a crowd, and the easiest way to do that is to up their power-level so that they are dominant in whatever crowd of heroes they are surrounded by. This is the X-Men's problem, where every hero has had to go OMEGA(!!!) in order to keep up with the Jones. You are getting heroes who have fantastic power-levels but who's personal mythology lacks the necessary infrastructure to support them in a comic of their own.
    That's particularly annoying with the X-folk. Their most popular characters are people like Wolverine and Deadpool, who, mutant power wise, are the lowest on the totem pole compared to the dozen or so Omega mutants like Michael Pointer or Mikhael Rasputin or Exodus who show up with a big splash and then are promptly forgotten. And they just keep going with this *demonstrably* failed notion of 'more power' meaning 'better character.'

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    Once Wonder Man overcame his fear, and his strength and durability stopped being unknown factors and became defined (not quite as strong as Thor)....
    And yet that in a nutshell was part of Wonder Man's problem. He would never be as powerful as Thor and he knew it. His complex was much to blame as his fear. But it wasn't all his fault. Someone created a cap, a ceiling, an editorially imposed limitation that pigeonholed Simon into a box. Any notions of "choice" that we think either he, or his writers had is purely illusionary. By design Wonder Man was going to be the lesser hero. Just as by design anyone who ever side-kicked for Batman was going to be the lesser hero.

    For some characters that's perfectly fine. For some readers that's fine.

    But not everyone wants to read about a fictitious world where literally anything is possible, only to see many of the disturbing real world practices flourishing. No one is a peasant in their dreams; we are all gods. To say that Thor should be unique and unassailable, or Hulk should be unique and unmatched in strength will turn off just as many fans who do not identify with Thor, or Hulk.

    Wonder Man is certainly a more relatable character. But not everyone cares for the plight of Wonder Man. We all could be that -- second best ... second class -- without paying Marvel a subscription fee to remind us of that fact.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    I really don't care for any writer's pet, overpowered POS, flavour of the month character that suddenly is supposed to be the biggest bad around (even if my favorite Marvel character, Wonder Man may fall in that category) In my book, Thor is the clean up batter at Marvel . Hulk, and perhaps Hercules , by a slight margin, may be stronger, but Thor is the most powerful.
    Interesting. And ironic. After all, the Asgardians aren't the oldest gods. They aren't even the most powerful. Yet Thor alone is perched as the paradigm. Why is that?

    I mean the argument can be made that Thor, Wolverine, Hulk -- these are all pets, too, right? In fact, these are the First Pets. Protected, praised and promoted to the exclusion of all others. So I guess, in many ways, they're like those players in sports, you know, like during the early years before they allowed others to compete, too? They get all of the press and capture everyone's imaginations, but it's funny how once those sports started letting other folks play -- in many a case, more gifted players play -- that's when those sports really achieved true greatness. Both in the record books, and in the number of fans.

    Hmmm...I wonder.

  10. #70
    Mighty Member GodThor's Avatar
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    SPOILER

    Thor is crap nowdays as well as all deities.

    atheism at work

    just joking.

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodThor View Post
    SPOILER

    Thor is crap nowdays as well as all deities.

    atheism at work

    just joking.
    But cyclical, I think. At the end of the day, Thor will always matter. The gods will always matter.

    And Marvel is still monotheistic as long as TOAA exists. When they kill off TOAA, then we definitely have to re-try that joke again. It will have 'em in stitches!

  12. #72
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodThor View Post
    SPOILER

    Thor is crap nowdays as well as all deities.

    atheism at work

    just joking.
    Joking aside, to SOME degree Thor does tend to be underwritten in team settings UNLESS they specificaly need a "big gun." Back in the day, a good 2/3 of the Avenger threats could probably be resolved by Thor himself. It was almost laughable that a guy like Thor was wasting his time dealing with say the Zodiac for example (or at least the human version which was basically a bunch of businessmen cosplaying).

    But really I suppose most powerful characters need to be written that way. Not that I don't agree Thor has been having a rough rough time in recent years.

  13. #73
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Joking aside, to SOME degree Thor does tend to be underwritten in team settings UNLESS they specificaly need a "big gun." Back in the day, a good 2/3 of the Avenger threats could probably be resolved by Thor himself. It was almost laughable that a guy like Thor was wasting his time dealing with say the Zodiac for example (or at least the human version which was basically a bunch of businessmen cosplaying).

    But really I suppose most powerful characters need to be written that way. Not that I don't agree Thor has been having a rough rough time in recent years.
    Perhaps it's a case where Thor already has the feats, so they're delving into his character more. As where the reverse usually happens for newer characters. Maybe it's just me, but I never worry about Thor. Ever. I just know that eventually he's going to wind up back on top. And he's going to stay there for years, until another writer comes along with the bright idea of showing all of the character points that make Thor, Thor.

  14. #74
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Perhaps it's a case where Thor already has the feats, so they're delving into his character more. As where the reverse usually happens for newer characters. Maybe it's just me, but I never worry about Thor. Ever. I just know that eventually he's going to wind up back on top. And he's going to stay there for years, until another writer comes along with the bright idea of showing all of the character points that make Thor, Thor.
    Certainly I don't worry about Thor... he's a guy who will always be fine. Movies, a solo book, and a spot on the Avengers team book regularly means that no matter how badly he's used there will be a million opportunities to balance things out.

    That said because Thor is considered the established big gun on the Avengers, writers will almost lazily job Thor out in order to establish how powerful someone else is. And I get the logic to it... but after a certain point, it waters down the effect. Similar to Galactus only on a smaller scale... anytime a cosmic story takes place Galactus basically gets his butt kicked to show how powerful this cosmic being is or this cosmic plot device is. It's almost predictable.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    Thor the comic will go on, because it is one of Marvel's staples; Thor Odinson, and Odin himself, are being deconstructed to death, and have not found much favour with the top Marvel writers for at least fifteen years, and I think it quite likely that they will at least try to replace Odinson with Jane, though whether that will mean killing him off or simply changing his role ( la original Nick Fury) I don't know. It's really the death of a thousand cuts for those guys. Top of Marvel's hierarchy is Steve Rogers, who I don't think has any flaws any more, and is never deconstructed and probably never will be as America see him as "their guy"... which is fine, but if it's okay for Cap to be free of deconstruction or flaws, then you can't really complain when fans of other heroes ask for the same courtesy, imo.

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