Was The Flash right to call out Batman ?

[Cmbmool]

Whether or not he was driven by mental manipulation or by grief was Barry Allen/ The Flash right to call out Bruce Wayne/Batman over how they view their sidekicks ?

Also I did this question before on the old forums, but here we go again.

As fans of either/both heroes: What do you think about this and which one was right ?

[Buried Alien]

Though Barry clearly had Wally (and perhaps Jason Todd) in mind when he excoriated Bruce, I think it goes beyond the sidekicks to the whole idea of putting on costumes and functioning as superheroes. There is that whole school of thought that has existed for years that while Gotham had severe crime problems long before Batman showed up, they were "normal" crime problems (e.g. gangsters, murderers, robbers, etc.). Some say that the coming of Batman made things worse by upping the ante and encouraging the creation/arrival of threats such as the Joker, Two-Face, Bane, etc.

You do have to wonder: were there as many supervillain threats before superheroes arose? Did the arrival of the superheroes themselves create the whole problem of supervillainy? Perhaps no Batman would have meant no Joker or Bane, and no Flash would have meant no Reverse Flash or Gorilla Grodd?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[reis9999]

Yes

Despite all Barry mistakes he, at least, have the conscience of how he screwed up things.
Bruce is hypocrital and cynical, ready to lash his grief and frustations on the other's (and let's be honest, what fuels him is anger and sadness, so he is always sabotaging his relationships).

He is a white rich boy that grow up surrounded by privilege and having anything he wanted (except his parents) so it's easy to understand why he is the way he is.

[hareluyafan1]

Yes

Despite all Barry mistakes he, at least, have the conscience of how he screwed up things.
Bruce is hypocrital and cynical, ready to lash his grief and frustations on the other's (and let's be honest, what fuels him is anger and sadness, so he is always sabotaging his relationships).

He is a white rich boy that grow up surrounded by privilege and having anything he wanted (except his parents) so it's easy to understand why he is the way he is.

This. Definitely this.

I have never bought that theory, BA, just as I have never believed the supervillains of other superheroes were spawned in the same way. The baddies were going to get badder, regardless.

To stray into Marvel territory for a moment, Captain America was created to counter the Red Skull, not the other way around. Bushman was already a mass murderer and terrorist well before Marc Spector became Moon Knight. So no, this idea that "superheroes themselves create the whole problem of supervillainy" doesn't hold water in most cases.

[Dicer]

Yes

Despite all Barry mistakes he, at least, have the conscience of how he screwed up things.
Bruce is hypocrital and cynical, ready to lash his grief and frustations on the other's (and let's be honest, what fuels him is anger and sadness, so he is always sabotaging his relationships).

He is a white rich boy that grow up surrounded by privilege and having anything he wanted (except his parents) so it's easy to understand why he is the way he is.

I question how calling out Bruce's race gender, social status and claiming he has no conscience has anything to do with the practice of having sidekicks.

[liwanag]

i think it was understandable of barry to lash out on batman.

one question i have is will this drive a wedge between the justice league.

i imagine barry and oliver blaming batman, and even superman and wonder woman for what happened.

[Cmbmool]

i think it was understandable of barry to lash out on batman.

one question i have is will this drive a wedge between the justice league.

i imagine barry and oliver blaming batman, and even superman and wonder woman for what happened.

Didn't a similar thing happen when Batman made Brother-eye, the events of Identity Crisis and even Tower of Babel storyline ?

[Armor of God]

I question how calling out Bruce's race gender, social status and claiming he has no conscience has anything to do with the practice of having sidekicks.

Its even more amusing when you realize that Barry fits the boring white guy stereotype better than almost anyone.

But ofcourse Batman has to be singled out.

[hareluyafan1]

Its even more amusing when you realize that Barry fits the boring white guy stereotype better than almost anyone.

At least Barry is human and relatable since he isn't a spoiled little rich boy and he isn't the "world's greatest everything."

But ofcourse Batman has to be singled out.

It's only right to single out the guy with infinite money that DC keeps shoving in our faces.

[lemonpeace]

Yes

Despite all Barry mistakes he, at least, have the conscience of how he screwed up things.
Bruce is hypocrital and cynical, ready to lash his grief and frustations on the other's (and let's be honest, what fuels him is anger and sadness, so he is always sabotaging his relationships).

He is a white rich boy that grow up surrounded by privilege and having anything he wanted (except his parents) so it's easy to understand why he is the way he is.

While I can kiiiiinda see what you are getting that, that read isn't exactly within the character we've watched. Besides his influence and wealth Bruce is so far removed from the rich oblivious white boy stereotype because since the death of his parents he's been constantly throwing himself into the worst if conditions either training or fighting crime. Sure, as a small child he got to live the sheltered privileged lifestyle but living most his life living and breathing the fight against human depravity kinda breaks that illusion. In fact, Bruce has often been shown to despise those kind of people even when he has to pretend to mingle with them to keep up appearances. Batman is a broken man but his privilege least of all is the reason for it. As a matter of fact, the only one really lashing out were Iris and Barry over their grief


On the topic, while it's conceivable to see where Barry is coming from because of his grief and he had some points, Bruce ultimately had the better argument in the grand scheme if things. Gotham Girl wasn't some kid who Batman picked off the street, she and her brother were young adults who went out, trained, and got powers on their own. It feel like while it was a well written story, Williamson either doesn't know, doesn't care or doesn't understand what went down with Gotham and Gotham Girl. First of all Batman didn't bench Claire, he sent her to get training away from Gotham (a place of immense trauma for her) so she wouldn't rely so heavily on her powers and fucking die; seems pretty compassionate to me. They made it out like he just left her in a windowless room somewhere and forgot about her. Also, Bruce never once inticed her to be a hero, he never forced it on her, he repeatedly gave her the choice. Like I said before, her and her brother appeared in Gotham and met Batman already with powers. He didn't bring her into the life, they were already in it. So, while after the events of Sanctuary, I can see superheroes questioning if the hero life is worth it, Barry (more so than Iris who is just a civilian) should understand that if someone wants to be a hero they are gonna do it and Bruce couldn't stop her if he tried (literally). Also that Robin shit from Barry was way out of line. We're not talking about the nephew of his girlfriend (not even his wife) like Wally, Barry is belittling the death of Bruce's biological son. The son he didn't have a choice in bringing into this line of work, the son who he literally flew to hell for and fought Darksied for, to get what he needed to bring back to life. If I was Bruce, Barry would be a dead son of a bitch after that; you don't pull that with someone who has been proven (cosmically) able to murder you if he snapped. While I want to believe that Williamson's point was supposed to show that Barry isn't in the right mental place to help the investigation, between this and how he handles Wallace West on the Flash title and how he handled the conflict between Barry and Wally in Flash War, I just think he's not very good with handling balanced character drama.

[Dred]

Barry raised Wally a lot more than Bruce ever raised Damian (Or Jason or Tim or Cass or even Dick considering Barry never BEAT WALLY TO A BLOODY PULP IN ANGER). To make the difference between biological son and "nephew" when Wally is essentially Barry and Iris' adopted son is a terrible point to make. Barry has spent much, much, much more time and care and love raising Wally than Bruce has Damian. Bruce is essentially letting Damian raise himself these days.

And, say what you will, but Barry never got Wally killed during their adventures or training. Both Jason and Damian died as Robins. Wally died because he had the gall to trust Bruce's stupid hologram torture chamber to help him. If you can't see the difference, and how that shifts blame and attitude, I don't know what to say.

There are parts of the conversation I think that are well out of character and poorly handled, but the impetus for it is not. Barry should have all the anger and blame in the world at his friends, who he trusted to look after his son, walking Wally into his death.

[TheCape]

Barry raised Wally a lot more than Bruce ever raised Damian (Or Jason or Tim or Cass or even Dick considering Barry never BEAT WALLY TO A BLOODY PULP IN ANGER). To make the difference between biological son and "nephew" when Wally is essentially Barry and Iris' adopted son is a terrible point to make. Barry has spent much, much, much more time and care and love raising Wally than Bruce has Damian. Bruce is essentially letting Damian raise himself these days.

And, say what you will, but Barry never got Wally killed during their adventures or training. Both Jason and Damian died as Robins. Wally died because he had the gall to trust Bruce's stupid hologram torture chamber to help him. If you can't see the difference, and how that shifts blame and attitude, I don't know what to say.

There are parts of the conversation I think that are well out of character and poorly handled, but the impetus for it is not. Barry should have all the anger and blame in the world at his friends, who he trusted to look after his son, walking Wally into his death.

I would said that he raised Dick almost as much as Barry raised Wally and things only started to go sour when he became Nightwing and Tim has a father and stepmother for most of his publication story so he didn't need to step into that role for him. But yeah, the rest is true.

[Coatl]

Yes

Despite all Barry mistakes he, at least, have the conscience of how he screwed up things.
Bruce is hypocrital and cynical, ready to lash his grief and frustations on the other's (and let's be honest, what fuels him is anger and sadness, so he is always sabotaging his relationships).

This (except for the last part who I omitted)

It's not only that Batgod getting his sidekicks hurt, traumatized or dead is a recurrent event, it's the fact that he doesn't care. His inability of taking his own guilt and accepting that perhaps he is making mistakes, so changing a safer and healthier ways is what make him unsympathetic.

[Dicer]

This (except for the last part who I omitted)

It's not only that Batgod getting his sidekicks hurt, traumatized or dead is a recurrent event, it's the fact that he doesn't care. His inability of taking his own guilt and accepting that perhaps he is making mistakes, so changing a safer and healthier ways is what make him unsympathetic.

Batman doesn't care what happens to his sidekicks?
Batman the guy who was going to kill Joker after Jason's death?
The guy who needed someone to someone to reign him in after Jason's death started making him more unstable?
The guy who picked up a gun and almost killed Alexander Luthor when he thought Dick Grayson died?
The guy who in response to his son dying was to search for ways to resurrect him and went to war with Apokolips to get his body back?
You're telling me the guy who did all of this doesn't care about what happens to his partners?

[Dred]

Batman, the man who almost did something

It's funny that Damian is the exception, considering how little raising he's done otherwise