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  1. #1
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    Default Was The Flash right to call out Batman ?

    Whether or not he was driven by mental manipulation or by grief was Barry Allen/ The Flash right to call out Bruce Wayne/Batman over how they view their sidekicks ?

    Also I did this question before on the old forums, but here we go again.

    As fans of either/both heroes: What do you think about this and which one was right ?

  2. #2
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Though Barry clearly had Wally (and perhaps Jason Todd) in mind when he excoriated Bruce, I think it goes beyond the sidekicks to the whole idea of putting on costumes and functioning as superheroes. There is that whole school of thought that has existed for years that while Gotham had severe crime problems long before Batman showed up, they were "normal" crime problems (e.g. gangsters, murderers, robbers, etc.). Some say that the coming of Batman made things worse by upping the ante and encouraging the creation/arrival of threats such as the Joker, Two-Face, Bane, etc.

    You do have to wonder: were there as many supervillain threats before superheroes arose? Did the arrival of the superheroes themselves create the whole problem of supervillainy? Perhaps no Batman would have meant no Joker or Bane, and no Flash would have meant no Reverse Flash or Gorilla Grodd?

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  3. #3
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    Yes

    Despite all Barry mistakes he, at least, have the conscience of how he screwed up things.
    Bruce is hypocrital and cynical, ready to lash his grief and frustations on the other's (and let's be honest, what fuels him is anger and sadness, so he is always sabotaging his relationships).

    He is a white rich boy that grow up surrounded by privilege and having anything he wanted (except his parents) so it's easy to understand why he is the way he is.

  4. #4
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Though Barry clearly had Wally (and perhaps Jason Todd) in mind when he excoriated Bruce, I think it goes beyond the sidekicks to the whole idea of putting on costumes and functioning as superheroes. There is that whole school of thought that has existed for years that while Gotham had severe crime problems long before Batman showed up, they were "normal" crime problems (e.g. gangsters, murderers, robbers, etc.). Some say that the coming of Batman made things worse by upping the ante and encouraging the creation/arrival of threats such as the Joker, Two-Face, Bane, etc.

    You do have to wonder: were there as many supervillain threats before superheroes arose? Did the arrival of the superheroes themselves create the whole problem of supervillainy? Perhaps no Batman would have meant no Joker or Bane, and no Flash would have meant no Reverse Flash or Gorilla Grodd?

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    I have never bought that theory, BA, just as I have never believed the supervillains of other superheroes were spawned in the same way. The baddies were going to get badder, regardless.
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  5. #5
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    I think Barry Allen should call out Tom King instead.

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    I think that both are right.

    Barry is right that putting young people in the line of fire, knowing the risks and consequences is wrong on so many levels - case in point, Gotham Girl.

    Bruce is right that if they want to be heroes, nothing short of actually breaking them will stop them -case in point, Gotham Girl.

    In the end, it's a matter of taste for the reader to decide. Does having experienced heroes still bringing more recruits in this world is something you support or not ?
    Last edited by Korath; 02-28-2019 at 03:12 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I think tat both are right.

    Barry is right that putting young people in the line of fire, knowing the risks and consequences is wrong on so many levels - case in point, Gotham Girl.

    Bruce is right that if they want to be heroes, nothing short of actually breaking them will stop them -case in point, Gotham Girl.

    In the end, it's a matter of taste for the reader to decide. Does having experienced heroes still bringing more recruits in this world is something you support or not ?
    Especially given how hard it is to get Batman’s approval ?

    I mean Tim Drake became the new Robin to help Batman after he learned of his secret Id and failed to convince Dick to help out and look what happened to him ?

  8. #8
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    Both of them were right. Unfortunately, the whole conversation is an excuse by the writers to show that both the Flash and Batman are broken heroes who can't save anyone and cause problems for everyone now.

    I think that heroes should train successors because they won't be around forever and if there are no successors who takes over when the hero retires/dies/ gets trapped in an alternate dimension?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by reis9999 View Post
    Yes

    Despite all Barry mistakes he, at least, have the conscience of how he screwed up things.
    Bruce is hypocrital and cynical, ready to lash his grief and frustations on the other's (and let's be honest, what fuels him is anger and sadness, so he is always sabotaging his relationships).

    He is a white rich boy that grow up surrounded by privilege and having anything he wanted (except his parents) so it's easy to understand why he is the way he is.
    This. Definitely this.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective
    I have never bought that theory, BA, just as I have never believed the supervillains of other superheroes were spawned in the same way. The baddies were going to get badder, regardless.
    To stray into Marvel territory for a moment, Captain America was created to counter the Red Skull, not the other way around. Bushman was already a mass murderer and terrorist well before Marc Spector became Moon Knight. So no, this idea that "superheroes themselves create the whole problem of supervillainy" doesn't hold water in most cases.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by reis9999 View Post
    Yes

    Despite all Barry mistakes he, at least, have the conscience of how he screwed up things.
    Bruce is hypocrital and cynical, ready to lash his grief and frustations on the other's (and let's be honest, what fuels him is anger and sadness, so he is always sabotaging his relationships).

    He is a white rich boy that grow up surrounded by privilege and having anything he wanted (except his parents) so it's easy to understand why he is the way he is.
    I question how calling out Bruce's race gender, social status and claiming he has no conscience has anything to do with the practice of having sidekicks.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member liwanag's Avatar
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    i think it was understandable of barry to lash out on batman.

    one question i have is will this drive a wedge between the justice league.

    i imagine barry and oliver blaming batman, and even superman and wonder woman for what happened.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by liwanag View Post
    i think it was understandable of barry to lash out on batman.

    one question i have is will this drive a wedge between the justice league.

    i imagine barry and oliver blaming batman, and even superman and wonder woman for what happened.
    Didn't a similar thing happen when Batman made Brother-eye, the events of Identity Crisis and even Tower of Babel storyline ?

  13. #13

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    Barry wasn’t wrong, exactly, but I’m curious where they’re going with this thread. The DC Universe is a superhero universe, and pulling at the threads of that too much risks deconstructing it in a way that ultimately wrecks it. If Batman, Flash etc really are doing more harm than good, what exactly is the point of any superhero comic?
    Cheers - CL

  14. #14
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    Understandable, but in Claires case, she would try to be a hero with or without Batmans help. In my opinion, she'd stand a better chance with his help. With Dick, Jason, Tim, Bruce tried to help them cope the only way he knew how, which probably is not the best way for sure.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixSpeedSamurai View Post
    Understandable, but in Claires case, she would try to be a hero with or without Batmans help. In my opinion, she'd stand a better chance with his help. With Dick, Jason, Tim, Bruce tried to help them cope the only way he knew how, which probably is not the best way for sure.
    Yet with Tim, it was more of him helping Bruce and not vice versa...that is until his dad was killed.

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