Was The Flash right to call out Batman ?

[manwhohaseverything]

I try not to ask for too much.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

At this point, it is like a below the belt punch for Barry fans. Somebody did call bruce "spoiled rich kid" and gary stu.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

Flashpoint ruins Barry Allen’s moral high ground.

[lemonpeace]

Yes

Despite all Barry mistakes he, at least, have the conscience of how he screwed up things.
Bruce is hypocrital and cynical, ready to lash his grief and frustations on the other's (and let's be honest, what fuels him is anger and sadness, so he is always sabotaging his relationships).

He is a white rich boy that grow up surrounded by privilege and having anything he wanted (except his parents) so it's easy to understand why he is the way he is.

While I can kiiiiinda see what you are getting that, that read isn't exactly within the character we've watched. Besides his influence and wealth Bruce is so far removed from the rich oblivious white boy stereotype because since the death of his parents he's been constantly throwing himself into the worst if conditions either training or fighting crime. Sure, as a small child he got to live the sheltered privileged lifestyle but living most his life living and breathing the fight against human depravity kinda breaks that illusion. In fact, Bruce has often been shown to despise those kind of people even when he has to pretend to mingle with them to keep up appearances. Batman is a broken man but his privilege least of all is the reason for it. As a matter of fact, the only one really lashing out were Iris and Barry over their grief


On the topic, while it's conceivable to see where Barry is coming from because of his grief and he had some points, Bruce ultimately had the better argument in the grand scheme if things. Gotham Girl wasn't some kid who Batman picked off the street, she and her brother were young adults who went out, trained, and got powers on their own. It feel like while it was a well written story, Williamson either doesn't know, doesn't care or doesn't understand what went down with Gotham and Gotham Girl. First of all Batman didn't bench Claire, he sent her to get training away from Gotham (a place of immense trauma for her) so she wouldn't rely so heavily on her powers and fucking die; seems pretty compassionate to me. They made it out like he just left her in a windowless room somewhere and forgot about her. Also, Bruce never once inticed her to be a hero, he never forced it on her, he repeatedly gave her the choice. Like I said before, her and her brother appeared in Gotham and met Batman already with powers. He didn't bring her into the life, they were already in it. So, while after the events of Sanctuary, I can see superheroes questioning if the hero life is worth it, Barry (more so than Iris who is just a civilian) should understand that if someone wants to be a hero they are gonna do it and Bruce couldn't stop her if he tried (literally). Also that Robin shit from Barry was way out of line. We're not talking about the nephew of his girlfriend (not even his wife) like Wally, Barry is belittling the death of Bruce's biological son. The son he didn't have a choice in bringing into this line of work, the son who he literally flew to hell for and fought Darksied for, to get what he needed to bring back to life. If I was Bruce, Barry would be a dead son of a bitch after that; you don't pull that with someone who has been proven (cosmically) able to murder you if he snapped. While I want to believe that Williamson's point was supposed to show that Barry isn't in the right mental place to help the investigation, between this and how he handles Wallace West on the Flash title and how he handled the conflict between Barry and Wally in Flash War, I just think he's not very good with handling balanced character drama.

[Dred]

Barry raised Wally a lot more than Bruce ever raised Damian (Or Jason or Tim or Cass or even Dick considering Barry never BEAT WALLY TO A BLOODY PULP IN ANGER). To make the difference between biological son and "nephew" when Wally is essentially Barry and Iris' adopted son is a terrible point to make. Barry has spent much, much, much more time and care and love raising Wally than Bruce has Damian. Bruce is essentially letting Damian raise himself these days.

And, say what you will, but Barry never got Wally killed during their adventures or training. Both Jason and Damian died as Robins. Wally died because he had the gall to trust Bruce's stupid hologram torture chamber to help him. If you can't see the difference, and how that shifts blame and attitude, I don't know what to say.

There are parts of the conversation I think that are well out of character and poorly handled, but the impetus for it is not. Barry should have all the anger and blame in the world at his friends, who he trusted to look after his son, walking Wally into his death.

[TheCape]

Barry raised Wally a lot more than Bruce ever raised Damian (Or Jason or Tim or Cass or even Dick considering Barry never BEAT WALLY TO A BLOODY PULP IN ANGER). To make the difference between biological son and "nephew" when Wally is essentially Barry and Iris' adopted son is a terrible point to make. Barry has spent much, much, much more time and care and love raising Wally than Bruce has Damian. Bruce is essentially letting Damian raise himself these days.

And, say what you will, but Barry never got Wally killed during their adventures or training. Both Jason and Damian died as Robins. Wally died because he had the gall to trust Bruce's stupid hologram torture chamber to help him. If you can't see the difference, and how that shifts blame and attitude, I don't know what to say.

There are parts of the conversation I think that are well out of character and poorly handled, but the impetus for it is not. Barry should have all the anger and blame in the world at his friends, who he trusted to look after his son, walking Wally into his death.

I would said that he raised Dick almost as much as Barry raised Wally and things only started to go sour when he became Nightwing and Tim has a father and stepmother for most of his publication story so he didn't need to step into that role for him. But yeah, the rest is true.

[Frontier]

Bruce is essentially letting Damian raise himself these days.

I think part of the reason for that is marketing so Damian can be off on his own with the Titans and not be held back as Batman's partner...especially since writers don't seem interested in doing Batman and Robin stories these days.

And, say what you will, but Barry never got Wally killed during their adventures or training. Both Jason and Damian died as Robins. Wally died because he had the gall to trust Bruce's stupid hologram torture chamber to help him. If you can't see the difference, and how that shifts blame and attitude, I don't know what to say.

When you think about it, isn't it the Batfamily sidekicks who usually get the short-end of the stick, be it getting killed off or horrifically assaulted?

The Kid Flashes generally turn out okay until they become The Flash. Now I'm imagining Wallace as The Flash in a dilapidated and apocalyptic Central City.

I would said that he raised Dick almost as much as Barry raised Wally and things only started to go sour when he became Nightwing and Tim has a father and stepmother for most of his publication story so he didn't need to step into that role for him. But yeah, the rest is true.

I think it's disingenuous to say Batman hasn't raised a Robin or was a major father figure in their lives.

Like, even for the Robins who knew and were close to their biological father, I'd say Bruce imprinted on them as much as their biological parent did (for better or worse).

[Dred]

I think part of the reason for that is marketing so Damian can be off on his own with the Titans and not be held back as Batman's partner...especially since writers don't seem interested in doing Batman and Robin stories these days.

When you think about it, isn't it the Batfamily sidekicks who usually get the short-end of the stick, be it getting killed off or horrifically assaulted?

The Kid Flashes generally turn out okay until they become The Flash. Now I'm imagining Wallace as The Flash in a dilapidated and apocalyptic Central City.

I think it's disingenuous to say Batman hasn't raised a Robin or was a major father figure in their lives.

Like, even for the Robins who knew and were close to their biological father, I'd say Bruce imprinted on them as much as their biological parent did (for better or worse).

He specifically called out "biological son" as if that means anything when it comes to a father's love and connection. And I didn't say anything about imprinting, though I challenge what you say. Wally grew up wanting to be Barry. Dick, the only one who even has an argument, grew up NOT wanting to be Bruce. Part of that is who they are and the lives they've led, but part of that is also how Bruce treated Dick at times (downright abusive and manipulative).

[TheCape]

Damian is the only one that really wants to be like Bruce, Dick and Tim had always found their growing similarities with Bruce disturbing, they love him and admire him (and of course he loves then back), but they really don't want to be like him, Jason pretty much say "f*$k you" to his ideals, althougth they had managed to find an understanding in recents years.

[Dred]

Damian is the only one that really wants to be like Bruce, Dick and Tim had always found their growing similarities with Bruce disturbing, they love him and admire him (and of course he loves then back), but they really don't want to be like him, Jason pretty much say "f*$k you" to his ideals, althougth they had managed to find an understanding in recents years.

Yes, that is kind of my point, and even Damian is still too young to even know and Damian is super proof positive of my point about raising a son. Bruce barely interacts with Damian.

[Frontier]

He specifically called out "biological son" as if that means anything when it comes to a father's love and connection. And I didn't say anything about imprinting, though I challenge what you say. Wally grew up wanting to be Barry. Dick, the only one who even has an argument, grew up NOT wanting to be Bruce. Part of that is who they are and the lives they've led, but part of that is also how Bruce treated Dick at times (downright abusive and manipulative).

I think Dick's perspective on the Batman identity is a complicated one.

Like, as a kid and during the Dynamic Duo days (when Bruce was probably a little more well-adjusted because he had Robin with him) I think Dick may have humored or thought about taking over being Batman (granted, he probably also thought he'd be Robin forever), but obviously as he grew up he saw the kind of toll that being Batman took on Bruce and what it meant to be Batman and didn't want that for his life. But he still loved Bruce.

Being Batman and being The Flash are two very different things. In-universe Batman's "cool" but I don't think anyone who knows him well enough would want to actually be him unless they had to.

Damian is the only one that really wants to be like Bruce, Dick and Tim had always found their growing similarities with Bruce disturbing, they love him and admire him (and of course he loves then back), but they really don't want to be like him, Jason pretty much say "f*$k you" to his ideals, althougth they had managed to find an understanding in recents years.

I think Jason's stance on Batman's ideals is more complicated. A part of him feels betrayed by Bruce and that anger drives him, but he still leans towards doing good and to stop criminals like Batman, only with more violent methods. No matter how much he might try to deny it or move away from it, he's still a son of the Bat.

[kingaliencracker]

I think when we start having fictional heroes call out other heroes over the dangers and pitfalls of having adolescent sidekicks, it takes away the fun and suspension of disbelief.

So with that, no I'm not thrilled with Barry calling out Bruce. But I know it's a plot device to create unnecessary conflict, so I take it with a grain of salt. Besides, I'm not sure of any comic books out there currently in which the main character is actively involved in a story line with an adolescent sidekick, so it's even more silly to draw attention to it.

[Dred]

I think Dick's perspective on the Batman identity is a complicated one.

Like, as a kid and during the Dynamic Duo days (when Bruce was probably a little more well-adjusted because he had Robin with him) I think Dick may have humored or thought about taking over being Batman (granted, he probably also thought he'd be Robin forever), but obviously as he grew up he saw the kind of toll that being Batman took on Bruce and what it meant to be Batman and didn't want that for his life. But he still loved Bruce.

Being Batman and being The Flash are two very different things. In-universe Batman's "cool" but I don't think anyone who knows him well enough would want to actually be him unless they had to.

Let me simplify this down since you're going way off track from what I was saying.

Barry being upset is valid. Saying Wally was "only" his nephew and that it's wrong for him to hold his love of Wally to the same standard of love Bruce holds for his plethora of Robins is wrong in every way imaginable. Beyond all of that, if the situations were reversed, Bruce would also be well within his rights to blame and criticize Barry for the death of his son. We all clear here?

I think when we start having fictional heroes call out other heroes over the dangers and pitfalls of having adolescent sidekicks, it takes away the fun and suspension of disbelief.

So with that, no I'm not thrilled with Barry calling out Bruce. But I know it's a plot device to create unnecessary conflict, so I take it with a grain of salt. Besides, I'm not sure of any comic books out there currently in which the main character is actively involved in a story line with an adolescent sidekick, so it's even more silly to draw attention to it.

The place Barry is arguing from and grieving from isn't just the idea that sidekicks are bad. It's that he trusted Bruce (and Diana and Clark) with his son's wellbeing and the next time he saw Wally was as a corpse.

Williamson could've handled the dialogue and anger and contemplation a little more gracefully, but the idea of it is sound.

[Katana500]

Is Barry also raging at Superman and Wonderwoman? they are just as to blame as batman but he doesnt seem annoyed at them?

I kinda feel sorry for Bruce hes had a proper shitty year of bad stuff happening to him. Hope the heroes get some happiness eventually!

[Dred]

Is Barry also raging at Superman and Wonderwoman? they are just as to blame as batman but he doesnt seem annoyed at them?

I kinda feel sorry for Bruce hes had a proper shitty year of bad stuff happening to him. Hope the heroes get some happiness eventually!

No, but Superman and Wonder Woman never adopted sidekick kids like Bruce and Barry. Superman and Jon is a relatively recent/new thing and most of the time Donna isn't even involved with Diana.

That said Snyder is ignoring HiC in his comic for the most part and that's the only place Barry interacts with Superman and Wonder Woman. No crossovers yet.

[Coatl]

Yes

Despite all Barry mistakes he, at least, have the conscience of how he screwed up things.
Bruce is hypocrital and cynical, ready to lash his grief and frustations on the other's (and let's be honest, what fuels him is anger and sadness, so he is always sabotaging his relationships).

This (except for the last part who I omitted)

It's not only that Batgod getting his sidekicks hurt, traumatized or dead is a recurrent event, it's the fact that he doesn't care. His inability of taking his own guilt and accepting that perhaps he is making mistakes, so changing a safer and healthier ways is what make him unsympathetic.