Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 76
  1. #61
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    64

    Default

    A big difference between Marvel/DC and MHA is the fact in MHA most are born with powers, with it being an explicit 80% of the population while in Marvel/DC people with powers are still the minority and unlike in MHA they aren't always born with their abilities, you got people like Batman or Iron Man who use tech, people like Spider-Man or Flash who got their powers through accidents and even comparing to the X-Men the X-Gene is unpredictable it could lie dormant for 50 years before activating while in MHA it could be determined during childhood whether or not you're born with a quirk.

  2. #62
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    1,107

    Default

    Do you think Avenger's Academy saved or promoted the teen hero brand for Marvel? Because they did it before MHA was a thing and I don't remember it going anywhere in particular.

    MHA works partly because the conceit of the universe is public power use is illegal and culturally frowned upon. That let's the government hero system work.

    The conceit of DC is all these heroes showed up to use their powers for good instead of payment or government approval. Which bleeds into the youth. That's how you get the teen titans.

  3. #63
    Mighty Member Killerbee911's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    1,807

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Do you think Avenger's Academy saved or promoted the teen hero brand for Marvel? Because they did it before MHA was a thing and I don't remember it going anywhere in particular.

    MHA works partly because the conceit of the universe is public power use is illegal and culturally frowned upon. That let's the government hero system work.

    The conceit of DC is all these heroes showed up to use their powers for good instead of payment or government approval. Which bleeds into the youth. That's how you get the teen titans.
    Avenger Academy? No so much. The Initiative? Yes

    My point is they are more logical systems for managing superhero teens. The only reason teens are put in danger in away to which you blame the hero because they are using what I would call an older method. We aren't having convo here that Robin or Gotham Girl are 17 and basically adults, We aren't having the convo that they are well trained equipped and supervised back by the government on mission something wrong just happened.

    Anyway I have slighted distracted away from the general point of the thread which is to Blame Batman or Flash I guess

  4. #64
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    1,107

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Avenger Academy? No so much. The Initiative? Yes

    My point is they are more logical systems for managing superhero teens. The only reason teens are put in danger in away to which you blame the hero because they are using what I would call an older method. We aren't having convo here that Robin or Gotham Girl are 17 and basically adults, We aren't having the convo that they are well trained equipped and supervised back by the government on mission something wrong just happened.

    Anyway I have slighted distracted away from the general point of the thread which is to Blame Batman or Flash I guess
    The government is antagonistic in DC more often than it is helpful, though. You can't just spin the entire MO of the universe to suit a premise from another universe on the hopeful idea that'd it...fix what, I guess? Barry's anger in lashing out that Wally, a full grown adult and arguably the most blatantly successful "Teen Hero" ever, died when he was a well trained adult and one of the greatest heroes ever?

    Barry's sadness isn't really about the "broken" sidekick system because, even in DC, it's not really broken for anyone but Batman and maybe Green Arrow. He was upset that, from his point of view, Batman got his son killed and was trying to blame himself and, consequently, Bruce for living the same life.

    Heck, if this were MHA none of the batkids would even make it into the school because they don't have powers. Same with Roy, who's the only one you could put in the same "failure" breath as the Robin deaths. The vast majority, elsewise, did fine (in the abstract as people, not in the sales department because gosh does DC hate them all).
    Last edited by Dred; 03-05-2019 at 11:04 PM.

  5. #65
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    19,142

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    The government is antagonistic in DC more often than it is helpful, though.
    Is it? Most of the antagonism comes from Waller and her Suicide Squad and that time Luthor was POTUS but for the most part the DC heroes have a rather civil relationship with the government. If anything, I'd say they have the opposite problem in that there is too much the heroes have gotten away with at times.

  6. #66
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    1,107

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Is it? Most of the antagonism comes from Waller and her Suicide Squad and that time Luthor was POTUS but for the most part the DC heroes have a rather civil relationship with the government. If anything, I'd say they have the opposite problem in that there is too much the heroes have gotten away with at times.
    The vast majority of their modern interaction with the government is antagonistic. Waller and Lex being the heaviest interaction they get. Heck, even Wonder Woman and Trevor had the government using Trevor to spy on the JL and blah blah. The government is largely used as a paranoid entity afraid of the JL.

  7. #67
    Mighty Member pageturner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,805

    Default

    It is responsible of Barry to help others with speed powers. If they use them as heroes is solely on them.

    Bruce is different training mostly people without powers. Dick was one thing he wanted to avenger his family but Tim, Stephanie, and Jason are different. Damien came fully loaded.

    It is kind of sad that after a decade or so Batman has inspired multiple legacy heros and most of them operate in or near Gotham yet not much of a dent in the crime has been made. The city is a magnet for a certain type of villan

  8. #68
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    1,107

    Default

    I think Tim is actually the worst case, amusingly. Cass and Damian were screwed from the beginning (Cass could beat up Bruce from day 1, Damian was brought in by Dick so that's not even on Bruce), Steph was fighting crime before she ever met Bruce (though all the shit that happened to her after she became Robin is actually deeply fucking fucked up and required multiple retcons to not make Bruce look like absolute garbage). With Dick you can sort of say his life would've been way worse off with Bruce. Jason's death is obviously a stand out. Jason's death is the most standout stuff but even then you could say his life would've ended up worse and that his death was his own dang stupidity.

    But Tim? Tim literally had to become Robin because Dick convinced/begged him because Bruce needed a Robin. Some grown man's own personal breakdown and demons roped Tim's sense of pity and heroism into this brutal lifestyle. Tim had a good life ahead of him without Bruce. Tim did not need Bruce like Jason or Dick or Cass did. Tim got sucked into this life by Bruce's moody, emotionally distraught, unhinged black hole of a personality. Admittedly, Tim could've left at anytime and his own sense of justice kept bringing him back. But you can easily tally that up to Bruce's training and indoctrination in the lifestyle.


    Though, it's worth saying, this is all kind of moot. As is the nature of comics, you can track history back to some time when Dick or Wally literally saved the entire world from ending. So had Bruce and Barry not brought these adolescent children into the world of superheroics, the world would've literally been doomed at some point in the future. Pretty easy come back. That might've actually been a really insightful moment from Bruce instead of just snapping at Barry in their back and forth of petulance. "Barry, how many times would the world have ended if not for Wally West or Dick Grayson?" It would've been nice if one of the two would've recognized their characters for who they are and what they did and how much they mattered instead of literally just being vectors for how awful heroes are.
    Last edited by Dred; 03-11-2019 at 08:00 PM.

  9. #69
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    40,448

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    I think Tim is actually the worst case, amusingly. Cass and Damian were screwed from the beginning (Cass could beat up Bruce from day 1, Damian was brought in by Dick so that's not even on Bruce), Steph was fighting crime before she ever met Bruce (though all the shit that happened to her after she became Robin is actually deeply fucking fucked up and required multiple retcons to not make Bruce look like absolute garbage). With Dick you can sort of say his life would've been way worse off with Bruce. Jason's death is obviously a stand out. Jason's death is the most standout stuff but even then you could say his life would've ended up worse and that his death was his own dang stupidity.

    But Tim? Tim literally had to become Robin because Dick convinced/begged him because Bruce needed a Robin. Some grown man's own personal breakdown and demons roped Tim's sense of pity and heroism into this brutal lifestyle. Tim had a good life ahead of him without Bruce. Tim did not need Bruce like Jason or Dick or Cass did. Tim got sucked into this life by Bruce's moody, emotionally distraught, unhinged black hole of a personality. Admittedly, Tim could've left at anytime and his own sense of justice kept bringing him back. But you can easily tally that up to Bruce's training and indoctrination in the lifestyle.


    Though, it's worth saying, this is all kind of moot. As is the nature of comics, you can track history back to some time when Dick or Wally literally saved the entire world from ending. So had Bruce and Barry not brought these adolescent children into the world of superheroics, the world would've literally been doomed at some point in the future. Pretty easy come back. That might've actually been a really insightful moment from Bruce instead of just snapping at Barry in their back and forth of petulance. "Barry, how many times would the world have ended if not for Wally West or Dick Grayson?" It would've been nice if one of the two would've recognized their characters for who they are and what they did and how much they mattered instead of literally just being vectors for how awful heroes are.
    I think there have been several "what if" stories, some relatively canon, that have indicated Dick and Jason would not have ended up as well without Bruce taking them in.

    I agree Bruce needed Tim more then Tim needed Bruce (although being around Bruce probably helped a lot after what happened to his parents), because Tim's whole point was how Batman needed Robin, but Tim accomplished a lot of good as Robin.

  10. #70
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    1,107

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think there have been several "what if" stories, some relatively canon, that have indicated Dick and Jason would not have ended up as well without Bruce taking them in.

    I agree Bruce needed Tim more then Tim needed Bruce (although being around Bruce probably helped a lot after what happened to his parents), because Tim's whole point was how Batman needed Robin, but Tim accomplished a lot of good as Robin.
    Tim's parents don't get involved with this stuff if he's not Robin so that's not as good a reason. I don't think Captain Boomerang shoots his dad without him being brought into the superhero life.

    I don't think either said they didn't accomplish any good, but I would've like them to have said it. But Tim's small beans compared to Wally and Dick, who are kind of the main point Barry's on about.

    But like I said, neither of them handled the argument well. And it can be all chalked up to grief from Barry and guilt from Bruce, but I think that's kind of a lazy answer to subpar character writing.

  11. #71
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    40,448

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Tim's parents don't get involved with this stuff if he's not Robin so that's not as good a reason. I don't think Captain Boomerang shoots his dad without him being brought into the superhero life.
    Weren't Tim's parents kidnapped by Kobra? I don't think that had anything to do with him being Robin at the time.

  12. #72
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    6,634

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Weren't Tim's parents kidnapped by Kobra? I don't think that had anything to do with him being Robin at the time.
    Tim's parents were kidnapped by some voodoo witch doctor called the Obeah Man (a character who probably wouldn't fly today). It had no connection to his affiliation with Batman because Obeah Man had no knowledge of Tim's connection to Batman (which was very limited at the time because Tim had only started to train for the role of Robin).

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Buried Alien - THE FASTEST POST ALIVE!

    First CBR Appearance (Historical): November, 1996

    First CBR Appearance (Modern): April, 2014

  13. #73
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    40,448

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Tim's parents were kidnapped by some voodoo witch doctor called the Obeah Man (a character who probably wouldn't fly today). It had no connection to his affiliation with Batman because Obeah Man had no knowledge of Tim's connection to Batman (which was very limited at the time because Tim had only started to train for the role of Robin).

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Ah, there we go. Thanks Buried .

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,805

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think there have been several "what if" stories, some relatively canon, that have indicated Dick and Jason would not have ended up as well without Bruce taking them in.
    I just don't think Dick would have ended too badly. He was always a good kid and would have landed on his feet. Yes... his parents were killed in front of him... but This is Gotham. That craps happens all the time here. The number of reckless crazy vigilante/killers vs. number of orphans in Gotham is PRETTY low. The reality is he probably would have been raised in the circus (and if he was pulled out by some social worker he would have run away and rejoined it) and lived a somewhat happy life wandering from show to show...

    Jason on the other hand was already a petty criminal living on the street. His father worked for either Croc or Two-face and it doesn't take much imagination to think he'd have ended up as a supervillain or henchmen to someone... though I'd argue that's about what the Red Hood was all about.

  15. #75
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,556

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    I think Tim is actually the worst case, amusingly. Cass and Damian were screwed from the beginning (Cass could beat up Bruce from day 1, Damian was brought in by Dick so that's not even on Bruce), Steph was fighting crime before she ever met Bruce (though all the shit that happened to her after she became Robin is actually deeply fucking fucked up and required multiple retcons to not make Bruce look like absolute garbage). With Dick you can sort of say his life would've been way worse off with Bruce. Jason's death is obviously a stand out. Jason's death is the most standout stuff but even then you could say his life would've ended up worse and that his death was his own dang stupidity.

    But Tim? Tim literally had to become Robin because Dick convinced/begged him because Bruce needed a Robin. Some grown man's own personal breakdown and demons roped Tim's sense of pity and heroism into this brutal lifestyle. Tim had a good life ahead of him without Bruce. Tim did not need Bruce like Jason or Dick or Cass did. Tim got sucked into this life by Bruce's moody, emotionally distraught, unhinged black hole of a personality. Admittedly, Tim could've left at anytime and his own sense of justice kept bringing him back. But you can easily tally that up to Bruce's training and indoctrination in the lifestyle.
    Well said and it makes me wonder why don’t they use this plot line often to showcase a powerful point in allowing someone who has never had a tragedy happen to him get involved with the world of superheroes. That alone should have cheek a major warning sign from the start.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •