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  1. #76
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kon93 View Post
    Quotes. Jor-El : You will give the people of Earth an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you, they will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun, Kal

    This quote the difference between how you see superman and how he really is or would be.
    Give them a idea, not make decisions for them
    The will stumble, they will fall, illustrates that jor knows humanity has a long way to go, BUT it's their journey to get there, not supermans duty to push them in the direction he wants them to go.

    Superman would think of himself as better than us.

    He wouldn't break a countries laws, and definitely not the 1 he lives in and loves. So no he would not help illiegals cross the border.

    He wouldn't pick out certain ppl he thinks are bad, he would see both sides of the argument, and not let his personal feelings tip the balance out of some selfishness. So no he wouldn't get rid of the Koch Brothers, just like he woundnt get rid of george Soros.


    Ppl here keep forgetting that superman is a reactionary hero, there have been plenty of stories where it has been brought up, even other heroes bring it to his attention. He does not impose himself on others.

    If he sees a guy with a gun pointing it at someone he is gonna do something about it. If he sees a car going off the road. If he sees a desert, he might plant seeds and get a water system running to it. If he sees a nuke heading toward a defenseless country he is going to stop it.

    There is a reason why golden age superman stopped holding ppl over the side of roofs, same reason Grant Morrisons superman stopped doing it.


    There is a reason why superman is still Clark Kent, a investigative reporter.
    Superman doesn't think of himself as better - but he thinks that he can't go beyond a certain point because that's influencing people beyond the point of free will. And while I think that's correct for the most part, I do think that he would (if we're not tied to keeping the world he's in identical to ours) do certain things for the betterment of society. If he looks at climate, for instance, and sees that the "12 years before it's too late to stop devastating warming" thing and sees that it's right/wrong/close/etc and sees that people are or aren't doing enough, he wouldn't just go "oh well, $#!+ happens" - he'd take some steps accordingly. I do also think he'd find certain ways to be proactive about corruption. He doesn't do that in the comics because we want to see him in a society that looks as much like our own current one as possible. But putting him into an open scenario, imo, would be at least slightly different.
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  2. #77
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    ...Quick question but how does Superman deal with dictators in comics, do they even address it? What about his politics(abortion, immigration, gun-control)? because you know in the real world people would ask him.
    Every now and then a writer takes it on. A pre-1940 issue actually had him dragging Hitler and Stalin in front of some World Court-type body. Most typically since the 1950s, however, when it's brought up, it's to remind us why Superman doesn't go around toppling regimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kon93 View Post
    Quotes. Jor-El : ... it's their journey to get there, not supermans duty to push them in the direction he wants them to go.

    Superman would think of himself as better than us.

    He wouldn't break a countries laws, and definitely not the 1 he lives in and loves. So no he would not help illiegals cross the border.

    He wouldn't pick out certain ppl he thinks are bad, he would see both sides of the argument, and not let his personal feelings tip the balance out of some selfishness. So no he wouldn't get rid of the Koch Brothers, just like he woundnt get rid of george Soros.

    Ppl here keep forgetting that superman is a reactionary hero, there have been plenty of stories where it has been brought up, even other heroes bring it to his attention. He does not impose himself on others.

    If he sees a guy with a gun pointing it at someone he is gonna do something about it. If he sees a car going off the road. If he sees a desert, he might plant seeds and get a water system running to it. If he sees a nuke heading toward a defenseless country he is going to stop it.

    There is a reason why golden age superman stopped holding ppl over the side of roofs, same reason Grant Morrisons superman stopped doing it.

    There is a reason why superman is still Clark Kent, a investigative reporter.
    In general, I agree with you. Superman's goals are to inspire rather than force or dominate (if they weren't the width of Luthor's skull would have gotten reduced to a couple of millimeters on encounter 3 or 4).

    Still, Superman has had a lot of interpretations, even before we start talking about the effect of reboots. "Uninterrupted" Silver Age Superman (meaning the same guy that had been in publication since dumping an unnamed murderess off on
    The Governor's lawn was capable of some pretty condescending, sometimes rather cruel dickery towards Lois Lane (there's a whole blog about problematic SA stories on CBR). To some degrees, each of us choose our Superman interpretation, and none are likely to be incontestably correct.

  3. #78
    Mighty Member Kon93's Avatar
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    OK climate, superman is not going to go around closing businesses down that are polluting, BUT Clark Kent would absolutely write about it and get the ball rolling on it.

    Let's not confuse superman with Clark Kent. Superman is reactionary and to defend, Clark is about bringing things to light and helping stop shit.

    Superman is not just a comic character he is a role model, and we would be better off if all of us acted even a little bit more like him, the world would start to be a better place
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  4. #79
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kon93 View Post
    Quotes. Jor-El : You will give the people of Earth an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you, they will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun, Kal

    This quote the difference between how you see superman and how he really is or would be.
    Give them a idea, not make decisions for them
    The will stumble, they will fall, illustrates that jor knows humanity has a long way to go, BUT it's their journey to get there, not supermans duty to push them in the direction he wants them to go.

    Superman would think of himself as better than us.

    He wouldn't break a countries laws, and definitely not the 1 he lives in and loves. So no he would not help illiegals cross the border.

    He wouldn't pick out certain ppl he thinks are bad, he would see both sides of the argument, and not let his personal feelings tip the balance out of some selfishness. So no he wouldn't get rid of the Koch Brothers, just like he woundnt get rid of george Soros.


    Ppl here keep forgetting that superman is a reactionary hero, there have been plenty of stories where it has been brought up, even other heroes bring it to his attention. He does not impose himself on others.

    If he sees a guy with a gun pointing it at someone he is gonna do something about it. If he sees a car going off the road. If he sees a desert, he might plant seeds and get a water system running to it. If he sees a nuke heading toward a defenseless country he is going to stop it.

    There is a reason why golden age superman stopped holding ppl over the side of roofs, same reason Grant Morrisons superman stopped doing it.


    There is a reason why superman is still Clark Kent, a investigative reporter.
    Okay, okay, I know I said I was done with this thread but damn it...
    Your whole point, what you believe everyone should do if given Superman's powers, only makes sense if you honestly, genuinely believe that by serving as a role model you can inspire people, humanity, to become better. I don't believe that. I don't believe that they will merely stumble and fall trying to join me in the sun as Jor-El puts it, I believe they will, without a doubt, fail, collapse, and die. If I were to merely act as an inspiration, well, we've had plenty of inspiration over the years, and it largely hasn't done much. No one will join Superman in the sun. Most likely, either humans will bring about our own extinction, or we go back to the stone age, or the very best scenario, the future basically has the same sociopolitical background of today, but you now, mega storms, droughts, etc. are frequent, political divides are bigger, wealth gaps are larger, and millions of the most vulnerable people today will have died, never mind the wildlife. People won't join Superman-me in the sun, but I could be the last one to join them in the grave.

    In real life, no one is likely to inspire a better future. Either you build it yourself, or you sit back and watch the world slide. Maybe keep count of the millions you think it best to let die than to upset certain laws.
    Comic books can teach us valuable lessons about morality, but don't confuse it for how the world works. Comics don't have to show the hard decisions, but if Superman were real, and was like the comics, the screams of people in political prisons, being stoned by Sharia (law), tortured in black sites, and so forth, have to keep him up at night. And no, reporting on all he can isn't likely to change very much of that.

  5. #80
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    Quick question but how does Superman deal with dictators in comics, do they even address it? What about his politics(abortion, immigration, gun-control)? because you know in the real world people would ask him.
    They rarely delve into Clark's political leanings. He hasn't really gotten into social issues on a consistent basis since WWII.

    In Action 900 he stood with protesters during.....I forget what real-world event it was.....I *think* it was during the Arab Spring though. No acts of aggression; he just stood there in solidarity with others.

    I don't believe I've ever seen the issue of abortion brought up in the comics, ever. I suspect he'd be pro-life in all but the most extreme cases (like rape or where the woman's life is endangered) but that's just based on his general "all life matters" mentality, and his opinions on abortion itself? Who knows? But we do know that Superman supports immigration and will help illegals, as he's done in several issues. I think the most recent example was towards the end of Tomasi's run where Clark helps the aliens of Hamilton keep their cover and doesn't turn them over to Argus or the DEO or whoever. There are others in recent history but that's the most recent I know of. And I don't recall the issue of gun control being brought up but we have seen Clark use firearms in a number of situations so he's not anti-gun, though nothing has been said about his feelings on the particulars of the gun control topic.

    We can't really compare Superman's actions in comics to what he might do in the real world. The comics are influenced by business demands that radically change how heroes can approach their jobs; comics have to A) keep villains around so they can be re-used, B) have to limit the impact of the hero so the setting still resembles the real world and C) enforces a binary black-white morality that keeps heroes heroic and villains villainous. How Superman would actually deal with something like climate change, or Syria, or any number of things......there's no real basis for comparison here; the DCU and the real world is apples and oranges.
    Last edited by Ascended; 05-17-2019 at 04:50 PM.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkseid Is View Post
    I have a friend who doesn't like Superman. Actually hates him. He says he's too powerful and too "good." My argument is always if you had that much power would you be that good? That moral? I don't think I would. When I watch the news and see the pedophiles and rapists and murderers of the world I can't help but think if I had the power of Superman I wouldn't let the law take care of these real world monsters. But I do think about what would Superman do and that grounds me. It makes me want to be a better person. Once again why Superman is great and why super heroes are great in general.

    What would you do if you had his powers? I'm talking maybe a Superboy Prime type of scenario where you were the only one on the planet with powers. No one to keep you in check. Could you be as honest and as righteous as the man of steel? Or would you become a dictator?
    I like that Superman is good. I think people who call him too good or corny are sim8lar to persons in the office who call others overachievers or say that they are doing too much.

  7. #82
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Superman doesn't think of himself as better - but he thinks that he can't go beyond a certain point because that's influencing people beyond the point of free will. And while I think that's correct for the most part, I do think that he would (if we're not tied to keeping the world he's in identical to ours) do certain things for the betterment of society. If he looks at climate, for instance, and sees that the "12 years before it's too late to stop devastating warming" thing and sees that it's right/wrong/close/etc and sees that people are or aren't doing enough, he wouldn't just go "oh well, $#!+ happens" - he'd take some steps accordingly. I do also think he'd find certain ways to be proactive about corruption. He doesn't do that in the comics because we want to see him in a society that looks as much like our own current one as possible. But putting him into an open scenario, imo, would be at least slightly different.
    Agreed. I think, and this is just my theory, the closest we can get to seeing what Superman would do in an "open scenario" is the early issues of Action, before the IP became mired in corporate requirement and brand management. And in those issues he's quite the activist; his solutions are painfully childish and simple and would amount to absolutely nothing in the real world but I think this is also the only time we really got a chance to see what Superman would "really" do; who he'd be willing to piss off and who he'd target, because that's basically what S&S wrote; a guy who could fix their problems, as they saw it (and entertain them while doing so).

    But none of that is relevant to the thread and what *we* would do with Clark's powers. And inspiration is all well and good but it didn't work for Ghandi, Mandela, the Dalai Lama, or every other great name to grace history. Those men were all far wiser and greater than I am. If they failed to change the course of human morality with their inspirations I'm sure as hell not going to either. So I'm tossing some d-bags who truly deserve it into the sun. And if someone thinks I made the wrong call, too damn bad. I mean, like I said, I'm not interested in ruling the world or enforcing my opinions on everyone, but if I think something has to be done or someone is truly a threat? Responsibility demands I do what I can. And just because you might disagree with my ethics doesnt mean I'm wrong.
    Last edited by Ascended; 05-17-2019 at 05:48 PM.
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  8. #83
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kon93 View Post
    OK climate, superman is not going to go around closing businesses down that are polluting, BUT Clark Kent would absolutely write about it and get the ball rolling on it.

    Let's not confuse superman with Clark Kent. Superman is reactionary and to defend, Clark is about bringing things to light and helping stop shit.

    Superman is not just a comic character he is a role model, and we would be better off if all of us acted even a little bit more like him, the world would start to be a better place
    It's true that he wouldn't close them down outright, and Clark would be on them. But part of what Clark is able to do is aided by the brain he has via his Kryptonian powers/physiology. So what he does in his other persona is still something he does (at least, as it pertains to the OP question, imo).

    Pre-Crisis Superman was also a scientist, conducting experiments/etc for the betterment of humanity (or just for the heck of it). That's why my "what would I do" example takes that to a slightly new level that the comics wouldn't - and it's a way of closing those polluting businesses using the market itself, without using fists/etc. The only reason he doesn't use his power as an influencer in the comics is because it would change the world beyond what we have, potentially to the point of being unrecognizable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Agreed. I think, and this is just my theory, the closest we can get to seeing what Superman would do in an "open scenario" is the early issues of Action, before the IP became mired in corporate requirement and brand management. And in those issues he's quite the activist; his solutions are painfully childish and simple and would amount to absolutely nothing in the real world but I think this is also the only time we really got a chance to see what Superman would "really" do; who he'd be willing to piss off and who he'd target, because that's basically what S&S wrote; a guy who could fix their problems, as they saw it (and entertain them while doing so).
    Definitely agree. I would say there'd be some shift as his power level goes up, but as a general rule - I agree.

    But none of that is relevant to the thread and what *we* would do with Clark's powers. And inspiration is all well and good but it didn't work for Ghandi, Mandela, the Dalai Lama, or every other great name to grace history. Those men were all far wiser and greater than I am. If they failed to change the course of human morality with their inspirations I'm sure as hell not going to either. So I'm tossing some d-bags who truly deserve it into the sun. And if someone thinks I made the wrong call, too damn bad. I mean, like I said, I'm not interested in ruling the world or enforcing my opinions on everyone, but if I think something has to be done or someone is truly a threat? Responsibility demands I do what I can. And just because you might disagree with my ethics doesnt mean I'm wrong.
    Not to mention that, if any of those people you mentioned had Superman's powers... they'd probably have a very different life arc.
    Last edited by JAK; 05-17-2019 at 07:32 PM.
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  9. #84
    Mighty Member Kon93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Okay, okay, I know I said I was done with this thread but damn it...
    Your whole point, what you believe everyone should do if given Superman's powers, only makes sense if you honestly, genuinely believe that by serving as a role model you can inspire people, humanity, to become better. I don't believe that. I don't believe that they will merely stumble and fall trying to join me in the sun as Jor-El puts it, I believe they will, without a doubt, fail, collapse, and die. If I were to merely act as an inspiration, well, we've had plenty of inspiration over the years, and it largely hasn't done much. No one will join Superman in the sun. Most likely, either humans will bring about our own extinction, or we go back to the stone age, or the very best scenario, the future basically has the same sociopolitical background of today, but you now, mega storms, droughts, etc. are frequent, political divides are bigger, wealth gaps are larger, and millions of the most vulnerable people today will have died, never mind the wildlife. People won't join Superman-me in the sun, but I could be the last one to join them in the grave.

    In real life, no one is likely to inspire a better future. Either you build it yourself, or you sit back and watch the world slide. Maybe keep count of the millions you think it best to let die than to upset certain laws.
    Comic books can teach us valuable lessons about morality, but don't confuse it for how the world works. Comics don't have to show the hard decisions, but if Superman were real, and was like the comics, the screams of people in political prisons, being stoned by Sharia (law), tortured in black sites, and so forth, have to keep him up at night. And no, reporting on all he can isn't likely to change very much of that.

    God that was a depressing post, I'm sorry for you bud and your outlook, I just don't agree with it and will always strive to see the good in US.
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  10. #85
    Mighty Member Kon93's Avatar
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    I feel bad for some here,if you spend your whole life reading superman and didn't learn squat from it.
    You want your SB/kon-el/Conner kent fix

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  11. #86
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Pre-Crisis Superman was also a scientist, conducting experiments/etc for the betterment of humanity (or just for the heck of it). That's why my "what would I do" example takes that to a slightly new level that the comics wouldn't - and it's a way of closing those polluting businesses using the market itself, without using fists/etc. The only reason he doesn't use his power as an influencer in the comics is because it would change the world beyond what we have, potentially to the point of being unrecognizable.
    Honestly your "do science!" answer was the best one of the whole thread, I think. I think if any of us really wanted to make a real change in the world, inventing new technologies would be the way to do it. Probably the only truly viable one, really.
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  12. #87
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kon93 View Post
    God that was a depressing post, I'm sorry for you bud and your outlook, I just don't agree with it and will always strive to see the good in US.
    Eh, only depressing if you let it be. I'm damn happy about my outlook, I just shift all that useless "faith in humanity" crap over to individual people I can believe in. Just because I don't follow your optimism doesn't mean I'm lacking in any way. If you know that people are largely going to fail the future in an epic manner it gives you incentive to look for the good in the here and now. I don't need hope to be happy or to have a good outlook, I just need to find the good in where I am and who I'm with.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Honestly your "do science!" answer was the best one of the whole thread, I think. I think if any of us really wanted to make a real change in the world, inventing new technologies would be the way to do it. Probably the only truly viable one, really.
    Hehe.. "do science". I love it!

    Also, thanks for that - I was tempted to ask your thoughts specifically on my answer, just because I had a feeling you'd get a kick out of it (for the Silver/Bronze Ageyness with a modern twist, if nothing else).

    And I think, given the various political and social climates around the world, and the general "bending the knee" to larger businesses, that business technology is the fastest way to bend things in whatever direction one would like, and then media reform will help keep it there.
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  14. #89
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    If I have Superman powers I'll track down the people who at this moment planning to bomb the result of our election using superhearing and then x-ray vision to see where the evidence is located.

    I'll leave the catching to the authority and just be an anonymous tipper because there's gonna be legal problems and a lot of questions about my powers that will bring unwanted attention to my family.

    Natural disaster and school bullying I can be more hands on. Still gonna wear a mask though.

    Otherwise, it's x-ray and super hearing to expose corruption, although our investigators are pretty good at that.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 05-18-2019 at 05:39 PM.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Hehe.. "do science". I love it!

    Also, thanks for that - I was tempted to ask your thoughts specifically on my answer, just because I had a feeling you'd get a kick out of it (for the Silver/Bronze Ageyness with a modern twist, if nothing else).

    And I think, given the various political and social climates around the world, and the general "bending the knee" to larger businesses, that business technology is the fastest way to bend things in whatever direction one would like, and then media reform will help keep it there.
    If you want my thoughts.....your answer is the only one that will (possibly!) have a positive impact on the world.

    Morals and ethics are subjective. As this thread shows. Everyone here is suggesting what they believe would be the right thing to do and even within this small sample population, not everybody agrees on what "right" is. No matter what anyone did, someone would complain about it. You're not doing enough, you're doing too much, you're not doing the things you should, doing the right things wrong, you're being too involved with social development, not involved enough, blah blah blah. Governments will target you. If you bend the knee to one, the others will go after you. Bend the knee to none, and they'll all go after you. If you possess power but belong to no one, they'll call it "accountability" and try to stop you, even if what you do supports and bolsters them. And if your actions don't support them they'll label you a terrorist. They won't dare allow such a powerful wild card on the table no matter what you do. So bottom line, if you've got Clark's powers, unless you're so low key you don't do anything at all, you'll have at least half the world against you no matter what. They'll spend more time arguing and politicizing your actions than they'll spend actually considering your actions.

    But you know what everyone ultimately agrees on? Successful economics. Even if they hate that it's successful, everyone likes having money put in their pocket. So you wanna tackle climate change, you don't blow up factories. They'll just build more and hate you for killing jobs, and learn nothing. But if you create a green technology that is more effective and cheaper, and then you bring that to the market? Consumers will shift to the superior, cheaper product and manufactures will have to go where the demand is or go bankrupt.

    Now, even with your "do science!" idea, there'll be friction. People will lose their jobs. There'll be pushback from lobbyists. You're still not going to be popular. And they'll try to limit your influence. But if you pull it off and actually get your innovations out to the public competitively, and it's an obvious and clear upgrade that makes lives easier, the economics will force a win for you. Not because you're morally right but because you'll be too wealthy and influential to stop. Eventually they'll have to adopt your practices just to stop you financially, and at that point it's too late to regress. People don't let go of advancements once they have them.

    So, your plan to start a business and introduce new technologies is the only plan that has a chance of succeeding. The rest of us, whether we're just putting out fires and hoping we inspire change, or those of us who are going to throw people into space.....all we're doing is making ourselves public enemy #1, because someone with Superman's abilities in the real world is too radical an idea to be anything but destabilizing. But saving the world through economics......that's actually how it works. That's how the world is really changed; business and innovation.

    So if any of us get powers I hope it's you and I hope you're really good at inventing and selling stuff.

    If you need some marketing help, let me know.
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