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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    Yeah, I think you and I are saying the same thing----when I said he is undoubtedly a major figure in Spidey-lore, that is not the same thing as saying he is a major villain and I stand by it. He has had considerable impact/influence over the years so, while he is not on the Ock/Goblin/Venom threat level, he is a dangerous man with vast resources----as we saw in BIB.
    I think an untouchable crime lord is such a great fit for Spider-Man's world. Peter is the guy who can't look away when bad things are happening...yet Kingpin creates this environment where even Spidey's most trusted allies are often telling him to choose the lesser between evils. Matt can accept, to a certain extent, that the system has to be played like a game, but Peter can't.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I think an untouchable crime lord is such a great fit for Spider-Man's world. Peter is the guy who can't look away when bad things are happening...yet Kingpin creates this environment where even Spidey's most trusted allies are often telling him to choose the lesser between evils. Matt can accept, to a certain extent, that the system has to be played like a game, but Peter can't.
    In the USM comics they did show Kingpin that way and the only really good story is Learning Curve where Peter exposes Kingpin, shows him killing someone on camera and has him driven out of America. And then the later stories have Kingpin use magic law to get out of that. It got absurd. Don't 2016:Trump this and say it "used to be realistic but now it fits" that certainly wasn't how it was executed in context.

    Kingpin outside Daredevil stories tends to become like Deathstroke in the Identity Crisis series. Deathstroke started out as a bad guy for a team of kid sidekicks and he worked there, and then they made him someone who could beat the Flash, Green Lantern and others in single combat and literally nobody bought that. In ITSV you have Kingpin Hulk who can throw cars and bosses around Goblin and Octopus and others, and yeah it made sense for the story they were telling (Kingpin is this dumb moron there for Miles to beat up and look good) but it's not exactly an effective story nor is it playing fair. Then in PS4 you have Spider-Man going after Kingpin and it basically has Kingpin and his thugs firing rocket launchers at cops and waging an actual military-style siege against law enforcement. Yeah real subtle there for a criminal mastermind. This also applies to Kingpin in Punisher stories. There is no sane or logical reason why Frank Castle shouldn't plug Fisk. Yet the stories keep going "someone worse will come along" and so on and so forth. To me the only satisfying way to do it, is not use Kingpin in Punisher stories. I mean editorial has a strict policy against "the last Punisher story" so why not this.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 03-06-2019 at 08:20 AM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In the USM comics they did show Kingpin that way and the only really good story is Learning Curve where Peter exposes Kingpin, shows him killing someone on camera and has him driven out of America. And then the later stories have Kingpin use magic law to get out of that. It got absurd. Don't 2016:Trump this and say it "used to be realistic but now it fits" that certainly wasn't how it was executed in context.

    Kingpin outside Daredevil stories tends to become like Deathstroke in the Identity Crisis series. Deathstroke started out as a bad guy for a team of kid sidekicks and he worked there, and then they made him someone who could beat the Flash, Green Lantern and others in single combat and literally nobody bought that. In ITSV you have Kingpin Hulk who can throw cars and bosses around Goblin and Octopus and others, and yeah it made sense for the story they were telling (Kingpin is this dumb moron there for Miles to beat up and look good) but it's not exactly an effective story nor is it playing fair. Then in PS4 you have Spider-Man going after Kingpin and it basically has Kingpin and his thugs firing rocket launchers at cops and waging an actual military-style siege against law enforcement. Yeah real subtle there for a criminal mastermind. This also applies to Kingpin in Punisher stories. There is no sane or logical reason why Frank Castle shouldn't plug Fisk. Yet the stories keep going "someone worse will come along" and so on and so forth. To me the only satisfying way to do it, is not use Kingpin in Punisher stories. I mean editorial has a strict policy against "the last Punisher story" so why not this.
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  4. #64

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    Two more arguments for Kingpin as a great Spider-Man villain...

    He's the bad guy in a great Spider-Man movie (Into the Spider-Verse.)
    No one has surpassed him as the prototypical crime boss.

  5. #65
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Kingpin was THE Badguy in the 90s Spider-man cartoon.

    He's been the last boss that was responsible for all the other baddies going after Spider-man in one of Spidey's videogames.

    He was the villain used as Spider-man foe in one of the two Spider-man/Batman crossovers.

    He's the villain in a major Spider-man movie.

    If that isn't enough to rank you as a major Spider-man badguy, I don't know what is.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Kingpin was THE Badguy in the 90s Spider-man cartoon.

    He's been the last boss that was responsible for all the other baddies going after Spider-man in one of Spidey's videogames.

    He was the villain used as Spider-man foe in one of the two Spider-man/Batman crossovers.

    He's the villain in a major Spider-man movie.

    If that isn't enough to rank you as a major Spider-man badguy, I don't know what is.
    His two live-action versions have him as a Daredevil villain. Including Vincent D'Onofrio who is seen as "the" best version of Kingpin.

    The fact is that Daredevil has never had an animated series, he's never had a video game either (except for some gameboy tie-in I just found out when I looked it up). It's easier to make a Spidey animated and game series than a Daredevil one.

    Kingpin's profile was raised by Miller, and that made him a popular villain but instead he appears in Spider-Man cartoons and games because you can't do Daredevil in those child-centric and child-friendly mediums.

  7. #67
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    The only decade where Wilson was not a very prominent antagonist in Spider-Man, either in the books or in media, was in the 70's when the entire rogues gallery went to shit, and he still got like two stories.
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  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    The only decade where Wilson was not a very prominent antagonist in Spider-Man, either in the books or in media, was in the 70's when the entire rogues gallery went to shit, and he still got like two stories.
    That's not true. The vast majority of Kingpin's appearances in comics history has been in Daredevil. Until the start of Frank Miller's run on Dardedevil, Kingpin made 18 appearances in the pages of Amazing Spider-Man. He also appeared off and on in Captain America titles.

    It is indisputable and demonstrable that Kingpin owes his survival and popularity to Frank Miller's run on Daredevil. Stan Lee and Romita featured Kingpin often in a number of stories, but then between ASM #85 to ASM#164, Kingpin made no appearances in Spider-Man titles. And then Wolfman had a weird fondness for Kingpin and so revived him in that horrible jobbing issue where readers are expected to buy that a dude with no powers can kill a superpowered dude.

    Likewise, Kingpin made no major appearances in any Spider-Man story since Back in Black, a comic that made it hard to take Kingpin seriously as a Spider-Man villain anymore, certainly not as a legit physical threat. He's mostly just been there as a background and behind the scenes guy and not featured all that often, making something like 16-17 appearances across the 10 years which Slott worked on the title.

    Major developments like Kingpin becoming Mayor. That happened in a Daredevil comic during Charles Soule's run.

  9. #69
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    His two live-action versions have him as a Daredevil villain. Including Vincent D'Onofrio who is seen as "the" best version of Kingpin.

    The fact is that Daredevil has never had an animated series, he's never had a video game either (except for some gameboy tie-in I just found out when I looked it up). It's easier to make a Spidey animated and game series than a Daredevil one.

    Kingpin's profile was raised by Miller, and that made him a popular villain but instead he appears in Spider-Man cartoons and games because you can't do Daredevil in those child-centric and child-friendly mediums.
    So they're using Daredevil's enemies because Daredevil can't have a cartoon? That makes absolutly no sense. They aren't telling Daredevil stories with Spider-man. They're telling Spider-man stories and they're using a guy that's fought Spider-man plenty of times.

    Even if you want to say Kingpin is a Daredevil enemy... so what? Is there a rule somewhere that says a person can only have one enemy they fight? Rhino was used as an example earlier, but we could just as easily use Juggernaut. He's an X-men enemy, but he's also been a pretty prominent Hulk enemy. Then there's Dr. Doom who fights everybody. He's a Fantastic Four enemy primarily, but nobody would get upset to see him in a list of Ironman's greatest enemies. Or The Avengers, or even Spider-man.

    And really, the idea that Kingpin was used simply because they can't make a Daredevil cartoon or videogame is moronic to the extreme. There are a lot of characters that can't have their own cartoons or videogames. You don't see Spider-man picking from Adam Warlock's or the Power Pack's enemies. He's not fighting Stryfe because X-Force doesn't have a cartoon.

  10. #70
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    CLAIM: "The only decade where Wilson was not a very prominent antagonist in Spider-Man, either in the books or in media, was in the 70's when the entire rogues gallery went to shit, and he still got like two stories."

    60's: Major antagonist of Lee/Romita's run when the franchise hit it big. More consistent appearances than Norman, who was his equal during this run, and taken more seriously than Otto.

    80's: Main antagonist of early 80's Spectacular and late 80's stuff with the constant Hobgoblin/Rose/Kingpin hullaballoo

    90's: Absolute main antagonist of the 90's cartoon

    2000's: One of the three big bads of Ultimate, with Bendis thinking he's the perfect villain for teenage Spider-Man. Would've been prominent in the Spectacular cartoon. He got his ass beat in Back in Black, but exceptional physical prowess is not why he or any other top Marvel villains are where they are.

    2010's: Prominent in a video game, in a movie adaptation of USM, and back as a major antagonist in the books as one of Spencer's primary villains

    Adding other Spider-Man appearances, his profile puts him above major Spider-Man villains like Vulture and Electro who are older than him. If the Daredevil stuff didn't exist and all his Spider-Man stuff did, he'd still be like a top 5, or being extremely generous, top 10 Spider-Man villain. Who would be above him aside from Otto, Norman, and maybe Venom, a character who Spider-Man didn't even fight that much that still became an iconic foe? Kingpin is very important to the totality of Spider-Man, and is the primary face of the street crime element of the character (which is why he had small roles in Slott's run, which was never about that).
    Last edited by Snoop Dogg; 06-10-2019 at 01:37 AM.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    And really, the idea that Kingpin was used simply because they can't make a Daredevil cartoon or videogame is moronic to the extreme. There are a lot of characters that can't have their own cartoons or videogames. You don't see Spider-man picking from Adam Warlock's or the Power Pack's enemies. He's not fighting Stryfe because X-Force doesn't have a cartoon.
    Yeah, okay, if Kingpin ain't Kingpin, as in top dog of crime, in Spider-Man, then who will?

    Hammerhead can't play Kingpin, well, maybe he is doing so in the current Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon, just like Tombstone was raised a dozen notches in Spectactular Spider-Man, but traditionally, except for 1992 to 1997, in the comics, thus mirroring in the nineties Spider-Man cartoon, Kingpin is Kingpin. As in, all crime in Manhattan.

    And there's a reason why Spider-Man has cartoons. Spider-Man is Spider-Man. The top singular hero of the Marvel Universe.

    And since Spider-Man is based on Manhattan, Kingpin being Kingpin, Kingpin has always been here and there in Spider-Man as well, even while his focus shifted to formulating ways to pull extra strings to attempt to make Daredevil / Matt Murdock's life hell.
    Last edited by ngroove; 06-09-2019 at 11:17 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    His two live-action versions have him as a Daredevil villain. Including Vincent D'Onofrio who is seen as "the" best version of Kingpin.
    You mean three, counting "The Trial of the Incredible Hulk", which Daredevil was on a one-man crusade against him there too, but I'm not saying that to point the arrow more on "Kingpin = Daredevil", just only that there have been three live action Kingpins.

  13. #73

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    based on modern sensibilities-- some people have trouble wrapping their head around how can Kingpin keep up in an outright brawl with Spider-Man (peak human strength vs 10-15 tons strength-- or whatever spidey's strength officially is now..) so that's a problem (for some)--

    his status as a manipulator was ramped up by Miller.

    Now that he is mayor of New York City, for Spider-Man to openly battle him without "proof" of his corruption would be a challenge. Get the facts then expose him on TV and the internet.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    So they're using Daredevil's enemies because Daredevil can't have a cartoon? That makes absolutly no sense.
    That's pretty much how Marvel's animated division ran until the 90s when you had the Fox X-Men cartoon. Spider-Man was the one character they had that became this across the board success, so Marvel used him to promote properties through him. That's why you had Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends (where you had Iceman there rather than the X-Men), and also why Spider-Man fought Magneto (or Matto Magneto) in those cartoons.

    They aren't telling Daredevil stories with Spider-man. They're telling Spider-man stories and they're using a guy that's fought Spider-man plenty of times.
    And yet, until Back in Black, there was never a definitive Spider-Man/Kingpin story.

    Even if you want to say Kingpin is a Daredevil enemy... so what? Is there a rule somewhere that says a person can only have one enemy they fight?
    It's not a question of rules, it's the question of getting the most out of the character. Frank Miller's run on Daredevil made him one of the most influential villains of the '80s. If you want the Kingpin of Born Again, you need Daredevil, otherwise he's a reduced and shallow version of the character.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post

    And yet, until Back in Black, there was never a definitive Spider-Man/Kingpin story.


    .
    Peter Parker, the Spectacular-Spider-Man #89-100, in which he was the secret mastermind behind Black Cat's bad luck powers.
    Last edited by ngroove; 06-10-2019 at 08:28 PM.

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