Does the Kingpin count as a major Spider-Man villain?

[Dicer]

I mean if you don't consider the fact the power vacuum that opens up because of his arrest is something that directly leads into the main plot happening important I don't know what to tell ya.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I mean if you don't consider the fact the power vacuum that opens up because of his arrest is something that directly leads into the main plot happening important I don't know what to tell ya.

The so-called power vaccum is a non-entity by the end of the DLC, where the gangsters and everyone's gone. When we last see Kingpin, he's behind bars, Norman Osborn is basically enjoying himself taunting that loser behind bars, his own thugs in one side-mission get busted for trying to break him out.

The idea of Kingpin that "without him someone worse will come" and so on is basically Marvel's version of "Why Batman doesn't kill the Joker?" IT makes zero sense. In USM, that was introduced early by Robbie Robertson and even he didn't believe it, calling it "a school of thought", and later Daredevil points out to Peter, "they killed Hitler and that was the end of the Third Reich".

[Dicer]

The so-called power vaccum is a non-entity by the end of the DLC, where the gangsters and everyone's gone.

That's months after his arrest after the city was nearly torn apart twice because his absence allowed the demons to gain power, which lead to things like Sable coming to New York, the Devil's Breath outbreak, and the DLC itself is about crime lords trying to use Kingpin's arrest as an opportunity to gain power.
If Kingpin doesn't go to jail most of the game doesn't happen.

[Snoop Dogg]

I wish he was in it more, but he is the catalyst for the entire plot, yes. Add it to the list for the things in the sequel.

Kingpin is a Spider-Man villain. Just because he is shared by another character heavily does not change that he is important to the Spider-Man mythos and the Spider-Man mythos is important to him. It is a shared universe where he can be both things, which is why we live in a decade where his status quo was uprooted in Spider-Man, which fed into his next story in Daredevil, and then his status quo being changed in Daredevil is the entire backbone for one of the biggest plotlines revolving around him in the flagship Spider-Man comic.

I still remember Kingpin being one of Spidey's main nemesis' in the 90's Spider-Man cartoon, voiced superbly by Roscoe Lee Browne (who I still read the Kingpin's voice in to this day).

YO SAME BRO

[Revolutionary_Jack]

If Kingpin doesn't go to jail most of the game doesn't happen.

At best you can say the Mr. Negative terrorist attack on the city wouldn't have happened when it did or be pushed ahead and back. But the Sinister Six and Dr. Octopus' plan was independent and contingent to that.

In either case, Kingpin is not an important character in the game. The main story is about Mr. Negative and Dr. Octopus. The DLC is about Hammerhead. I don't think it's a prominent appearance at all. Certainly not compared the the Sega game from the 90s mentioned before.

As to where Kingpin fits in Spider-Man's rogues. Consider this, among Spider-Man artists and writers, the gold standard is Ditko. Everyone agrees that there are few characters created Post-Ditko that are as good.

Lee-Ditko -- Chameleon, Vulture, Scorpion, Dr. Octopus, the Lizard, Mysterio, Kraven the Hunter, The Green Goblin, Electro, The Sandman, Molten Man.

(that's 11 rogues by the way)

Lee-Romita - Rhino, The Kingpin, The Shocker

Romita-Andru-Conway - Hammerhead, The Jackal, Mindworm, Tarantula and years later, Tombstone.

Wolfman-Pollard - Black Cat

Stern/JRJR - Hobgoblin

David Michelinie/Macfarlane - Venom

Michelinie/Bagley - Carnage

Among the Lee-Ditko rogues, Kingpin is better, as a Spider-Man villain than Molten Man. So that puts him in 11th Place, and even then the biggest Spider-Man villains Post-Ditko is Venom and Carnage. And I think the Rhino is on the whole a more enduring Spider-Man villain than Fisk. Certainly more popular than Fisk since he showed up in Hulk storylines following that.

[Inversed]

He gets punked in the first 15 minutes, fights like any Brute archetype, and is imprisoned for the rest of the game and never gets out. That's not "a fairly big role". It's basically the opening of a Bond movie where 007 gets an early win to show how awesome he is.

Okay fine, "fairly important role." He's still mentioned a lot after he's arrested, and appears a couple more times afterward, so he's an important aspect of the game. Nowhere near as major as Ock, Negative, Sable, etc., but its something.

AAmong the Lee-Ditko rogues, Kingpin is better, as a Spider-Man villain than Molten Man. So that puts him in 11th Place, and even then the biggest Spider-Man villains Post-Ditko is Venom and Carnage. And I think the Rhino is on the whole a more enduring Spider-Man villain than Fisk. Certainly more popular than Fisk since he showed up in Hulk storylines following that.

Wait, so Rhino showing up in Hulk storylines helps his popularity as a better villain, but appearing in Daredevil doesn't for Fisk??

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Wait, so Rhino showing up in Hulk storylines helps his popularity as a better villain, but appearing in Daredevil doesn't for Fisk??

Sorry, that was an error. I meant immediate popularity. In the years after Rhino appeared he became fairly popular rather quickly, and quickly migrated to the Hulk (in 1968) while Fisk languished in Spider-Man titles before showing up in a Captain America comic and then coming to Daredevil.

This is Rhino's list of appearances

https://cmro.travis-starnes.com/char...pe=2&limit=100

This is Kingpin's:

https://cmro.travis-starnes.com/char...pe=2&limit=100

You can see that immediately after he arrived, Rhino started appearing regularly outside ASM (in fact he was AWOL for a long time from ASM, returning later). Kingpin on the other hand appeared briefly and sporadically across

[Frontier]

He gets punked in the first 15 minutes, fights like any Brute archetype, and is imprisoned for the rest of the game and never gets out. That's not "a fairly big role". It's basically the opening of a Bond movie where 007 gets an early win to show how awesome he is.

He was definitely a starter villain, with his importance being more in stature and as a representative of being the major ovearching threat of Peter's Spider-Man career up to that point, rather then being a major threat of the game entirely.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

He was definitely a starter villain, with his importance being more in stature and as a representative of being the major ovearching threat of Peter's Spider-Man career up to that point, rather then being a major threat of the game entirely.

The game basically has Spider-Man hit his 20s without facing a Dr. Octopus, a Green Goblin, and a Venom. So it's not exactly comparable to more familiar Spider-Man versions in ASM, USM. Kingpin is described early in the game as Peter's "big whale" or something. And the point is to show that Spider-Man is older, more capable, and not in high school, so having him start the game by taking down the big mob boss and the rest of the game being about the arrival of Dr. Octopus while also teasing Goblin and Venom in the sequel(s) signals where it's going.

Kingpin doesn't work as a Spider-Man villain because Spider-Man villains are supposed to be physical and mental challenges, and Spider-Man battles are supposed to be part slugfests and part using physics, environment, and so on against opponent to outmaneuver him. Spider-Man is also about using powers and skills for good and not evil, so most of his villains are mad scientists or guinea-pigs or lab rats gone wild and so on.

In the case of Fisk you have a big fat guy (who we are told is "all muscle") who is supposed to be really strong and good at martial arts, and to me you can't make me buy or believe for a second that someone like that can be any threat to the guy who goes against Dr. Octopus, Vulture, Rhino, Green Goblin, Juggernaut, Firelord and who also went few rounds with the Hulk and acquitted himself and basically survived. I think people assume that because Kingpin is big, and Peter looks scrawny that's supposed to mean something but it doesn't. Fisk is also this poor kid who worked in the mob and became a crimelord...that doesn't work with Peter's theme, because Kingpin never had any real worthwhile skills to offer to society. And again he has no powers. So for him he's all about using and leveraging personal, financial, and social power for his advantage. And while you can have good stories with Spider-Man tackling that, as USM did, after a time, it becomes uninteresting as the later Kingin stories in USM proved (and eventually Bendis junked Fisk by having his Mysterio kick him off a building). It's not terribly interesting to see Spider-Man fight Kingpin because it's jobbing most of the time, and the only time it's satisfying is when Peter humiliates Fisk as in Back in Black.

Whereas all that stuff works better with Daredevil. Seeing D'onofrio in Season 2 Daredevil in that scene where Matt meets Fisk in jail, and Murdoch casually threatens to deport Vanessa...the way D'Onofrio immediately loses his **** and starts ragdolling Matt while the cops are all looking away (because obviously they are on his payroll) was quite amazing.

[Dicer]

So far I'm not seeing any real arguments for why Fisk doesn't work as a Spidey villain.
Not any good ones at least, especially when some of these statements are in direct contradiction for each other.
Like it's hard to buy Kingpin a hulking monster of a man as a physical threat to Spider-Man but it's completely fine for Vulture a frail elderly man to be one?
That doesn't make sense, and at the same time you can't acknowledge that what makes Kingpin dangerous isn't his strength, but then say those very qualities will just old and stale, but for some reason won't if he's going against Daredevil.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Like it's hard to buy Kingpin a hulking monster of a man as a physical threat to Spider-Man but it's completely fine for Vulture a frail elderly man to be one?

This isn't well known, but the Vulture's equipment actually gives him super-strength. He's actually extremely strong and tough. Roger Stern's origin stories explained that well.

The MCU movie didn't emphasize that enough so everyone thinks he's a dude with wings and so on. But he's a tough dude.

The Kingpin has ordinary strength-by-bodybuilding, at best tougher than Crusher Hogan and other wrestlers who 15 year old super-strong Peter defeated.

Matt Murdoch aside from the super senses is also a man of human strength. He's not super-strong, but he's skilled as a martial artist and he's blind. So there's a balance between him and the Kingpin that isn't there between Spider-Man and Fisk.

[Prof. Warren]

Sorry, that was an error. I meant immediate popularity. In the years after Rhino appeared he became fairly popular rather quickly, and quickly migrated to the Hulk (in 1968) while Fisk languished in Spider-Man titles before showing up in a Captain America comic and then coming to Daredevil.

Rhino migrated to the Hulk because he was such an obviously good match-up with him. That's all.

Kingpin wasn't "languishing" in Spider-Man titles any more than, say, Red Skull was languishing in Captain America or Ultron was languishing in Avengers.

Villains don't have to migrate to other titles in order to be good villains or to prove their popularity.

Rhino simply lent himself so easily to being a Hulk adversary that it was a natural move.

Kingpin doesn't work as a Spider-Man villain because Spider-Man villains are supposed to be physical and mental challenges, and Spider-Man battles are supposed to be part slugfests and part using physics, environment, and so on against opponent to outmaneuver him. Spider-Man is also about using powers and skills for good and not evil, so most of his villains are mad scientists or guinea-pigs or lab rats gone wild and so on.

But Kingpin does work as a Spider-Man villain. He's been a Spider-Man villain forever, has been featured in many classic issues, continues to be a player in Spidey books to this day, and is the villain in a hugely successful Spider-Man movie.

To try and argue that he "doesn't work" is pure idiocy. Writers from Stan to Len Wein to Marv Wolfman to Greg Rucka to Bendis and others have made him work as a Spidey villain with no problem. You can argue that you don't like Kingpin as a Spidey villain on grounds of personal taste but not that he objectively doesn't work. Especially when you're imposing your own imaginary rules about what Spider-Man villains are "supposed to be" in order to disqualify Kingpin when anyone can simply point to any number of actual issues featuring Kingpin that immediately refute your argument.

[Snoop Dogg]

Spider-Man villains should be able to challenge him diverse and unique ways, and there is value in having a major one who Spider-Man simply can't touch in traditional ways because he's the mayor or whatever. Where is that great scene from the 80's from where they're in Fisk's office and he roasts Peter on his absolute powerlessness?

As for his physical abilities, he is absurdly strong and skilled, to the point that he can face and practically beat Captain America, a character Spider-Man can't beat (or rather, shouldn't be able to). There is BiB, where Wilson clearly didn't know what he was getting into, and then there's like the only good (that might be too far) issue of the Wolfman run where he trounces him like a clown. So yes, he is a normal human, but normal skilled/peal humans can beat Spider-Man, so a brick shithouse one like Fisk can at least challenge him so it can go either way. Which he does, because it's been engraved onto the pages that he does.

[Snoop Dogg]

Tom Holland ain't ready.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

You can argue that you don't like Kingpin as a Spidey villain on grounds of personal taste but not that he objectively doesn't work. Especially when you're imposing your own imaginary rules about what Spider-Man villains are "supposed to be" in order to disqualify Kingpin when anyone can simply point to any number of actual issues featuring Kingpin that immediately refute your argument.

Let me say that in this case in this thread, this is just my subjective views. I am just saying what I believe to be the common effective qualities for villains in superhero comics in general, and Spider-Man in particular. I make my observations based on some external notes but my judgment is my own.

The general consensus, stated or unstated, is that there isn't one Kingpin story with Spider-Man that's as good as the stuff in Daredevil. I love Back in Black and it's awesome to see Spider-Man cut loose even if its in tragic and dark circumstances (of his own doing, albeit being coerced by Tony more than his own beliefs) but it's a great Peter Parker/Spider-Man story and not a Kingpin one. It's extremely hard to argue against the viewpoint that Kingpin is all the more dynamic and interesting a character with Daredevil as a foil than he is with Spider-Man. The best version of the character is with Daredevil. He's a much more reduced figure in Spider-Man. Maybe it's because for Daredevil he often isn't just a villain or major villain but the only villain, since Bullseye and Electra work for him, and Kingpin is tied to all his other villains in some way. So that elevation and connection gives him a scale there that he can't have in Spider-Man.

You want my opinion. I don't like Kingpin in Spider-Man stories but I like him in Daredevil stories. The rivalry between Matt and Kingpin is Doom/Richards level good. Whereas it never gets there with Peter because it's impersonal. And the minute it gets personal as in Back in Black, the pretense that this could mean anything dies, and Fisk folds like a fish. Kingpin is a great villain but he works best only with one guy, Daredevil. For the same reasons, I don't think Kingpin is a good Punisher villain. With the Punisher, you have to contrive all sorts of reasons why Castle doesn't shoot this guy or find some rocket launcher to unload onto him, so you have them invent this "someone worse will come" which doesn't make sense.

Spider-Man villains should be able to challenge him diverse and unique ways, and there is value in having a major one who Spider-Man simply can't touch in traditional ways because he's the mayor or whatever.

You have that with Norman Osborn. The Green Goblin killed Gwen Stacy and Peter will never be able to avenge it. One because he has a Healing Factor, two because he's rich and powerful, three he's cunning and dangerous. And Four, he's physically super strong. And he knows Peter's identity. I will say that Daredevil's Fisk is a more interestingly written villain than Green Goblin is as a character but Goblin works better as a Spider-Man villain.

Tom Holland ain't ready.

Considering the jobbing and outright silliness they do in the movies to sell the Tony Stark Intern story, I expect Holland's Peter to fold against the Bodega Bandit