Does the Kingpin count as a major Spider-Man villain?

[Agent Z]

Let me say that in this case in this thread, this is just my subjective views. I am just saying what I believe to be the common effective qualities for villains in superhero comics in general, and Spider-Man in particular. I make my observations based on some external notes but my judgment is my own.

The general consensus, stated or unstated, is that there isn't one Kingpin story with Spider-Man that's as good as the stuff in Daredevil. I love Back in Black and it's awesome to see Spider-Man cut loose even if its in tragic and dark circumstances (of his own doing, albeit being coerced by Tony more than his own beliefs) but it's a great Peter Parker/Spider-Man story and not a Kingpin one. It's extremely hard to argue against the viewpoint that Kingpin is all the more dynamic and interesting a character with Daredevil as a foil than he is with Spider-Man. The best version of the character is with Daredevil. He's a much more reduced figure in Spider-Man. Maybe it's because for Daredevil he often isn't just a villain or major villain but the only villain, since Bullseye and Electra work for him, and Kingpin is tied to all his other villains in some way. So that elevation and connection gives him a scale there that he can't have in Spider-Man.

You want my opinion. I don't like Kingpin in Spider-Man stories but I like him in Daredevil stories. The rivalry between Matt and Kingpin is Doom/Richards level good. Whereas it never gets there with Peter because it's impersonal. And the minute it gets personal as in Back in Black, the pretense that this could mean anything dies, and Fisk folds like a fish. Kingpin is a great villain but he works best only with one guy, Daredevil. For the same reasons, I don't think Kingpin is a good Punisher villain. With the Punisher, you have to contrive all sorts of reasons why Castle doesn't shoot this guy or find some rocket launcher to unload onto him, so you have them invent this "someone worse will come" which doesn't make sense.



You have that with Norman Osborn. The Green Goblin killed Gwen Stacy and Peter will never be able to avenge it. One because he has a Healing Factor, two because he's rich and powerful, three he's cunning and dangerous. And Four, he's physically super strong. And he knows Peter's identity. I will say that Daredevil's Fisk is a more interestingly written villain than Green Goblin is as a character but Goblin works better as a Spider-Man villain.



Considering the jobbing and outright silliness they do in the movies to sell the Tony Stark Intern story, I expect Holland's Peter to fold against the Bodega Bandit

Jobbing? Last I checked Peter not only defeated his villains but also beat the Winter Soldier. If anything, Tony's lost more fights than Peter.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Jobbing? Last I checked Peter not only defeated his villains but also beat the Winter Soldier. If anything, Tony's lost more fights than Peter.

I was thinking more in Homecoming, directed by a guy who doesn't acknowledge the existence of a spider-sense and had to be spideysplained by Feige and then the Russos had to introduce Peter having the spider-sense to give him something else to retcon out in his movie.

The Vulture was loads of fun in Homecoming but again it's weird that they made him interesting by making him a Tony Stark villain but he's so weak and materially handicapped that he fights the lowly intern of Tony Stark instead. That's the Marvel caste system at work. I have to say it was disturbing that a line like "below my paygrade" was told in a Spider-Man movie and it was accepted with a laugh and a straight face...years back I can imagine a sentiment like that showing up in an Ultimate Marvel book and people calling it an example of how Ultimate heroes are jerks. In the movie Tony Stark is framed as a moral authority which again I see entirely as celebrity/star/brand politics and not actual character work.

I also found it bizarre and weird that you have a villain like the Vulture, one of Spider-Man's most aerial villains and you do most of the fights in darkness, rarely have Spider-Man swing and fight, and the finale is Spider-Man on a beach at Coney Island mostly on the ground and dodging while Michael Keaton divebombs him. The combat designs and fights was as they say in french, bad. Compare that to Raimi where the first Green Goblin fight is broad-daylight in a bight parade and you have swinging and gliding around through the whole course.

Personally, I think it would be cool if they made Vulture the leader of the sinister 6 in the MCU. I mean who are you going to introduce as Dr. Octopus who can boss Keaton's Vulture around. Just remove Ock, add in maybe an Electro or why not Hypno-Hustler for all I care...

[Dicer]

Considering the jobbing and outright silliness they do in the movies to sell the Tony Stark Intern story, I expect Holland's Peter to fold against the Bodega Bandit

How is it jobbing to have a 15-year-old rookie who's been in about 2 real fights in his life not automatically win against criminals with alien weaponry?
Last I checked you said Spidey villains need to be physical threats, and they were so I'm failing to see the problem, especially with the logic you've been bringing up and using.

[Prof. Warren]

Let me say that in this case in this thread, this is just my subjective views. I am just saying what I believe to be the common effective qualities for villains in superhero comics in general, and Spider-Man in particular. I make my observations based on some external notes but my judgment is my own.

The general consensus, stated or unstated, is that there isn't one Kingpin story with Spider-Man that's as good as the stuff in Daredevil.

You obviously want to have it both ways.

"It's just my subjective opinion!" - even though you also try to set the rules for everyone on this thread as to what does and doesn't count in making a case for whether a villain is good or not.

And on the other hand, you also want to point to the "general consensus" when you think it suits the point you want to make.

Well, the general consensus is that the Kingpin is a classic Spider-Man villain. No one outside yourself is saying otherwise.

If you simply like being argumentative for its own sake, that's up to you.

Then again, the whole premise of this thread is about being argumentative for its own sake.

"Do Spider-Man villains suck?" No.

Any list of the best rogue galleries in comics will put Spider-Man's villains either at #2 or #1.

That's the consensus, anywhere you go.

https://www.cbr.com/15-superhero-rog...leries-ranked/

https://www.newsarama.com/15497-the-...-time.html#s11

https://aminoapps.com/c/comics/page/...81g4ndraWZR63x

https://www.ranker.com/list/best-rog.../ranker-comics

https://nerdclique.com/10-best-super...ues-galleries/

The only question about Spider-Man's villains that's actual worth asking is whether his rogue gallery beats Batman's or vice versa.

That question can be debated eternally. Anything else is just senseless noise.

Considering the jobbing and outright silliness they do in the movies to sell the Tony Stark Intern story, I expect Holland's Peter to fold against the Bodega Bandit

You know that in the comics, Peter Parker lost to the Vulture in his first encounter with him, yes?

He flies around behind Peter while he's futzing with his camera, knocks him out cold and then drops him in a water tower, thinking "This is almost too easy!"

Was Stan Lee "jobbing" Peter? Was it "outright silliness" for Peter to look like such an easily defeated chump? No.

Superheroes do have to lose fights and have to be challenged and have defeats in order to create suspense and establish the threat of their adversaries.

All told, Holland's Spider-Man performed much better in his first outing against his Vulture than Peter did against his.

[Mister Mets]

At best you can say the Mr. Negative terrorist attack on the city wouldn't have happened when it did or be pushed ahead and back. But the Sinister Six and Dr. Octopus' plan was independent and contingent to that.

In either case, Kingpin is not an important character in the game. The main story is about Mr. Negative and Dr. Octopus. The DLC is about Hammerhead. I don't think it's a prominent appearance at all. Certainly not compared the the Sega game from the 90s mentioned before.

As to where Kingpin fits in Spider-Man's rogues. Consider this, among Spider-Man artists and writers, the gold standard is Ditko. Everyone agrees that there are few characters created Post-Ditko that are as good.

Lee-Ditko -- Chameleon, Vulture, Scorpion, Dr. Octopus, the Lizard, Mysterio, Kraven the Hunter, The Green Goblin, Electro, The Sandman, Molten Man.

(that's 11 rogues by the way)

Lee-Romita - Rhino, The Kingpin, The Shocker

Romita-Andru-Conway - Hammerhead, The Jackal, Mindworm, Tarantula and years later, Tombstone.

Wolfman-Pollard - Black Cat

Stern/JRJR - Hobgoblin

David Michelinie/Macfarlane - Venom

Michelinie/Bagley - Carnage

Among the Lee-Ditko rogues, Kingpin is better, as a Spider-Man villain than Molten Man. So that puts him in 11th Place, and even then the biggest Spider-Man villains Post-Ditko is Venom and Carnage. And I think the Rhino is on the whole a more enduring Spider-Man villain than Fisk. Certainly more popular than Fisk since he showed up in Hulk storylines following that.

Most of those Lee/ Ditko aren't obviously more important than the Kingpin.

What's the case for Chameleon, Sandman, Vulture, Scorpion, Mysterio and others being a bigger deal?

I'll accept Green Goblin and Doctor Octopus, but Kraven wasn't that important until he got killed off.

Let me say that in this case in this thread, this is just my subjective views. I am just saying what I believe to be the common effective qualities for villains in superhero comics in general, and Spider-Man in particular. I make my observations based on some external notes but my judgment is my own.

The general consensus, stated or unstated, is that there isn't one Kingpin story with Spider-Man that's as good as the stuff in Daredevil. I love Back in Black and it's awesome to see Spider-Man cut loose even if its in tragic and dark circumstances (of his own doing, albeit being coerced by Tony more than his own beliefs) but it's a great Peter Parker/Spider-Man story and not a Kingpin one. It's extremely hard to argue against the viewpoint that Kingpin is all the more dynamic and interesting a character with Daredevil as a foil than he is with Spider-Man. The best version of the character is with Daredevil. He's a much more reduced figure in Spider-Man. Maybe it's because for Daredevil he often isn't just a villain or major villain but the only villain, since Bullseye and Electra work for him, and Kingpin is tied to all his other villains in some way. So that elevation and connection gives him a scale there that he can't have in Spider-Man.

You want my opinion. I don't like Kingpin in Spider-Man stories but I like him in Daredevil stories. The rivalry between Matt and Kingpin is Doom/Richards level good. Whereas it never gets there with Peter because it's impersonal. And the minute it gets personal as in Back in Black, the pretense that this could mean anything dies, and Fisk folds like a fish. Kingpin is a great villain but he works best only with one guy, Daredevil. For the same reasons, I don't think Kingpin is a good Punisher villain. With the Punisher, you have to contrive all sorts of reasons why Castle doesn't shoot this guy or find some rocket launcher to unload onto him, so you have them invent this "someone worse will come" which doesn't make sense.



You have that with Norman Osborn. The Green Goblin killed Gwen Stacy and Peter will never be able to avenge it. One because he has a Healing Factor, two because he's rich and powerful, three he's cunning and dangerous. And Four, he's physically super strong. And he knows Peter's identity. I will say that Daredevil's Fisk is a more interestingly written villain than Green Goblin is as a character but Goblin works better as a Spider-Man villain.



Considering the jobbing and outright silliness they do in the movies to sell the Tony Stark Intern story, I expect Holland's Peter to fold against the Bodega Bandit

There are a lot of comic book stories that aren't on the level of the best Kingpin Daredevil stories. Most villains don't have anything on that level, including quite a few top Spider-Man foes (Scorpion, Vulture, Electro, Mysterio, Lizard, Sandman)

[Zeitgeist]

He does

101010

[Revolutionary_Jack]

And on the other hand, you also want to point to the "general consensus" when you think it suits the point you want to make.

What I meant is that is what I think the consensus is...that is my view of what the general consensus is. You are free to counter that and prove me wrong. If you think Kingpin is a better written character and in better stories in Spider-Man than in Daredevil, you are free to make the case and counter-argument. The end result is that I'll simply go back to old stories and look again with fresh eyes to see if what you argue is true.

Maybe it's worth doing a poll on this...not on Spider-Man board but maybe the general Marvel Boards or a Daredevil board.

Kingpin in Spider-Man versus Kingpin in Daredevil. All of Spider-Man's best stories with Kingpin to choose the more recent ones -- Back in Black, Read 'Em and Weep, Learning Curve in USM, involves Spider-Man unambiguously defeating and scoring against Fisk at the end of the story. Whereas in Daredevil, Kingpin has this untouchable aura and legal and social muscle. As such Kingpin is a much bigger threat in Daredevil than in Spider-Man, and when Kingpin appears in Spider-Man media (more for the fact that Daredevil is a tougher sell) they tend to borrow from his appearances in Miller's work and the ones who followed him.

[Frontier]

How is it jobbing to have a 15-year-old rookie who's been in about 2 real fights in his life not automatically win against criminals with alien weaponry?

Well, I mean, he did better against trained Superheroes then he did against low-level crooks with alien tech, but that's probably because Watt's approach to Spider-Man was different from the Russo's.

Granted, Watts had Tony say Peter wouldn't have done anywhere near as well against Cap if he had been serious, but that just feels like them trying to downplay how strong Spidey seemed in Civil War.

[Mister Mets]

What I meant is that is what I think the consensus is...that is my view of what the general consensus is. You are free to counter that and prove me wrong. If you think Kingpin is a better written character and in better stories in Spider-Man than in Daredevil, you are free to make the case and counter-argument. The end result is that I'll simply go back to old stories and look again with fresh eyes to see if what you argue is true.

Maybe it's worth doing a poll on this...not on Spider-Man board but maybe the general Marvel Boards or a Daredevil board.

Kingpin in Spider-Man versus Kingpin in Daredevil. All of Spider-Man's best stories with Kingpin to choose the more recent ones -- Back in Black, Read 'Em and Weep, Learning Curve in USM, involves Spider-Man unambiguously defeating and scoring against Fisk at the end of the story. Whereas in Daredevil, Kingpin has this untouchable aura and legal and social muscle. As such Kingpin is a much bigger threat in Daredevil than in Spider-Man, and when Kingpin appears in Spider-Man media (more for the fact that Daredevil is a tougher sell) they tend to borrow from his appearances in Miller's work and the ones who followed him.

I don't think anyone's arguing that Kingpin is more important as a Spider-Man villain than as a Daredevil villain.

I also doubt that most villains would be able to meet the standard of beating Kingpin in a general board. What Spider-Man villain would win if the question was whether they're a more impressive Spider-Man enemy than Kingpin is as an enemy of Daredevil?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

What Spider-Man villain would win if the question was whether they're a more impressive Spider-Man enemy than Kingpin is as an enemy of Daredevil?

That goes back to my argument in the mother thread...about why Spider-Man's rogues seem weak. On the whole, the story is centered on Peter and his supporting cast. They are important and central. In the case of Daredevil since you have a lawyer with a constant religious and vocational crisis about fighting evil, or injustice, without becoming evil you are able to delve into the relationship and psychology of the villains.

Kingpin in Daredevil is an altogether more impressive villain than any Spider-Man rogue. Green Goblin and Dr. Octopus aren't as interesting compared to him in Daredevil. But that doesn't mean that Kingpin is more effective and impressive as a Spider-Man villain just because he got elevated by Miller and others.

[Nero]

Fisk has been a reoccurring Spider-Man villain in the comics, video games, cartoons and even just recently the main villain in the latest Spider-Man movie. So there's your answer to whether the Kingpin count as a major Spider-Man villain. What makes the Kingpin great is that he can be a major villain to more than one hero and he's supposed to be.

[Minerboh]

He is what Darkseid is to Superman. At least this is how i see him.

[SpiderClops]

Yes, he does count as a major Spider-Man villain.

First that "Spidey's villains suck" thread and now this. Seriously people.

[theoneandonly]

actually daredevil is kingpin! he leads a double life as swashbuckling crimefighter/lawyer and a criminal mastermind.don't believe me? here's Spider man exposing his charade.

[Mister Mets]

That goes back to my argument in the mother thread...about why Spider-Man's rogues seem weak. On the whole, the story is centered on Peter and his supporting cast. They are important and central. In the case of Daredevil since you have a lawyer with a constant religious and vocational crisis about fighting evil, or injustice, without becoming evil you are able to delve into the relationship and psychology of the villains.

Kingpin in Daredevil is an altogether more impressive villain than any Spider-Man rogue. Green Goblin and Dr. Octopus aren't as interesting compared to him in Daredevil. But that doesn't mean that Kingpin is more effective and impressive as a Spider-Man villain just because he got elevated by Miller and others.

Most supervillains are going to lose the "Is this character more impressive villain than Kingpin in Daredevil" contest. Lex Luthor and Doctor Doom don't have a story as compelling as Born Again.