Does the Kingpin count as a major Spider-Man villain?

[oldschool]

Fisk is undoubtedly a major figure in Spidey-lore; I always feel hesitant branding him as a "top villain" simply because I could never really buy the mano a mano fight scenes in which Fisk hung in there with him. There were numerous such scenes throughout the Lee/Romita era and then again throughout the '70's culminating in the story in which Fisk defeats Spidey and is about to finish him off when Vanessa gives him the ultimatum of finishing him off or leaving with her (circa ASM#197 or so). Re-reading those tales now require a huge suspension of disbelief; the really early tales one could say Fisk took him by surprise, the old "he may look fat but it's all muscle" line but, after that, Spidey should have mopped the floor with him every time as he did in "Back In Black". Having said that, Fisk works really well as the King of NY; the complex figure who sometimes helps Spidey when it furthers his own interests, the shadowy overlord who is always 4 steps ahead of everybody else. In that regard, he is one of the book's best characters and always will be.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Most supervillains are going to lose the "Is this character more impressive villain than Kingpin in Daredevil" contest. Lex Luthor and Doctor Doom don't have a story as compelling as Born Again.

I'll give you "Skinny Kingpin" Luthor, but Dr. Doom has Triumph and Torment, Emperor Doom, Unthinkable.

Fisk is undoubtedly a major figure in Spidey-lore;

He's made less than 100 appearances in ASM across all relaunches since his first appearances. The fact is in the comics in 616, he's not been very prominent. Most of his appearances was before he broke out in Daredevil. And after that it was sporadic. Back in Black is far and away his biggest story in ASM, bigger than anything before, and anything since.

In USM, Bendis kept reusing him but it was never as good as the first, and he had to do the most contrived and absurd things to keep Fisk from knowing Spider-Man is Peter despite unmasking him all the time. And ultimately, Bendis simply junked him unceremoniously after Ultimatum where Mysterio showed up and chucked him off a building.

I always feel hesitant branding him as a "top villain" simply because I could never really buy the mano a mano fight scenes in which Fisk hung in there with him. There were numerous such scenes throughout the Lee/Romita era and then again throughout the '70's culminating in the story in which Fisk defeats Spidey and is about to finish him off when Vanessa gives him the ultimatum of finishing him off or leaving with her (circa ASM#197 or so). Re-reading those tales now require a huge suspension of disbelief; the really early tales one could say Fisk took him by surprise, the old "he may look fat but it's all muscle" line but, after that, Spidey should have mopped the floor with him every time as he did in "Back In Black".

More or less my point and argument.

Having said that, Fisk works really well as the King of NY; the complex figure who sometimes helps Spidey when it furthers his own interests, the shadowy overlord who is always 4 steps ahead of everybody else. In that regard, he is one of the book's best characters and always will be.

That's how Kingpin was reconfigured after Wolfman skulked off. And it worked well when they brought Black Cat and Hobgoblin into the mix. But he doesn't play that role terribly often in the books after that. Right now Mayor Fisk is kneeling before the Centidemon and secretly bossing around Boomerang. So he's not a big power player in Spider-Man right now.

[oldschool]

I'll give you "Skinny Kingpin" Luthor, but Dr. Doom has Triumph and Torment, Emperor Doom, Unthinkable.



He's made less than 100 appearances in ASM across all relaunches since his first appearances. The fact is in the comics in 616, he's not been very prominent. Most of his appearances was before he broke out in Daredevil. And after that it was sporadic. Back in Black is far and away his biggest story in ASM, bigger than anything before, and anything since.

In USM, Bendis kept reusing him but it was never as good as the first, and he had to do the most contrived and absurd things to keep Fisk from knowing Spider-Man is Peter despite unmasking him all the time. And ultimately, Bendis simply junked him unceremoniously after Ultimatum where Mysterio showed up and chucked him off a building.



More or less my point and argument.



That's how Kingpin was reconfigured after Wolfman skulked off. And it worked well when they brought Black Cat and Hobgoblin into the mix. But he doesn't play that role terribly often in the books after that. Right now Mayor Fisk is kneeling before the Centidemon and secretly bossing around Boomerang. So he's not a big power player in Spider-Man right now.

Yeah, I think you and I are saying the same thing----when I said he is undoubtedly a major figure in Spidey-lore, that is not the same thing as saying he is a major villain and I stand by it. He has had considerable impact/influence over the years so, while he is not on the Ock/Goblin/Venom threat level, he is a dangerous man with vast resources----as we saw in BIB.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Yeah, I think you and I are saying the same thing----when I said he is undoubtedly a major figure in Spidey-lore, that is not the same thing as saying he is a major villain and I stand by it. He has had considerable impact/influence over the years so, while he is not on the Ock/Goblin/Venom threat level, he is a dangerous man with vast resources----as we saw in BIB.

Cool. I think it's been said before, but there really needs to be a like button.

[Chubistian]

I do count him as a major Spider-Man villain. In comics, he hasn't make an stamp as big as he has in Daredevil, but it's because he made a HUGE one there, so he is an important part of the Spider-Man's rogues gallery nonetheless. His pressence in the Fox Kids cartoon was essential to the series and his antagonism in Into the Spider-Verse revitalized him as a dangerous theath to Spider-Man and those close to him. Plus, though serving as an introduction to the game, it was made clear that he and Spider-Man share an enmity, and Back in Black years before made clear that despite Kingpin rivalry with Murdock, he still has a place in his vengeful heart to make Spider-Man's life as hard as he can if the opportunity appears.

I understand that it's made clear that Spider-Man can take Fisk pretty quickly in a fist fight, but Kingpin can always resort to gimmicks to win and take advantage that Spider-Man must hold the punches to not risking killing Kingpin. I'm still pretty satisfied with Kingpin defeating Spider-Man in Wolfman's run, conditions were made to make it a belieavable defeat

Also, Spider-Man fits pretty well fighting gangsters, and it's the why he has had so many criminals from the underworld, not only in comics, but on tv too, as Tombstone, Hammerhead, Silvermane, Kingpin, Big Man and Crime Master.

[NC_Yankee]

[QUOTE=Chubistian;4235035]I do count him as a major Spider-Man villain. In comics, he hasn't make an stamp as big as he has in Daredevil, but it's because he made a HUGE one there, so he is an important part of the Spider-Man's rogues gallery nonetheless. His pressence in the Fox Kids cartoon was essential to the series and his antagonism in Into the Spider-Verse revitalized him as a dangerous theath to Spider-Man and those close to him. Plus, though serving as an introduction to the game, it was made clear that he and Spider-Man share an enmity, and Back in Black years before made clear that despite Kingpin rivalry with Murdock, he still has a place in his vengeful heart to make Spider-Man's life as hard as he can if the opportunity appears.

I understand that it's made clear that Spider-Man can take Fisk pretty quickly in a fist fight, but Kingpin can always resort to gimmicks to win and take advantage that Spider-Man must hold the punches to not risking killing Kingpin. I'm still pretty satisfied with Kingpin defeating Spider-Man in Wolfman's run, conditions were made to make it a belieavable defeat

Also, Spider-Man fits pretty well fighting gangsters, and it's the why he has had so many criminals from the underworld, not only in comics, but on tv too, as Tombstone, Hammerhead, Silvermane, Kingpin, Big Man and Crime Master.[/QUOTE
I do not consider Kingpin to be a major Spider-Man villain. If I would rank them I would say 1: Doc Ock.1a: Green Goblin. 2: Venom. 3: Carnage. 4: Lizard. 5: Hobgoblin. 6: Rhino. 7: Mysterio. 8: Kraven. 9: Morlun. 10: Shocker.

[Chubistian]

[QUOTE=NC_Yankee;4235101]

I do count him as a major Spider-Man villain. In comics, he hasn't make an stamp as big as he has in Daredevil, but it's because he made a HUGE one there, so he is an important part of the Spider-Man's rogues gallery nonetheless. His pressence in the Fox Kids cartoon was essential to the series and his antagonism in Into the Spider-Verse revitalized him as a dangerous theath to Spider-Man and those close to him. Plus, though serving as an introduction to the game, it was made clear that he and Spider-Man share an enmity, and Back in Black years before made clear that despite Kingpin rivalry with Murdock, he still has a place in his vengeful heart to make Spider-Man's life as hard as he can if the opportunity appears.

I understand that it's made clear that Spider-Man can take Fisk pretty quickly in a fist fight, but Kingpin can always resort to gimmicks to win and take advantage that Spider-Man must hold the punches to not risking killing Kingpin. I'm still pretty satisfied with Kingpin defeating Spider-Man in Wolfman's run, conditions were made to make it a belieavable defeat

Also, Spider-Man fits pretty well fighting gangsters, and it's the why he has had so many criminals from the underworld, not only in comics, but on tv too, as Tombstone, Hammerhead, Silvermane, Kingpin, Big Man and Crime Master.[/QUOTE
I do not consider Kingpin to be a major Spider-Man villain. If I would rank them I would say 1: Doc Ock.1a: Green Goblin. 2: Venom. 3: Carnage. 4: Lizard. 5: Hobgoblin. 6: Rhino. 7: Mysterio. 8: Kraven. 9: Morlun. 10: Shocker.

He's definitely one of my top 10 Spider-Man villains, with GG (Norman & Harry), Kraven and Dr Octopus. I'm currently reading Stern's run in ASM, so I won't count Hobgoblin just yet. Mysterio probably would go in my top with some others Ditko villains, but I haven't given it much tought about who would go where. I like Venom, but he doesn't call my attention too much. I don't like Carnage though, but it's cool to have a hero with different villains that appeal to different tastes

[NC_Yankee]

[QUOTE=Chubistian;4235169][QUOTE=NC_Yankee;4235101]

He's definitely one of my top 10 Spider-Man villains, with GG (Norman & Harry), Kraven and Dr Octopus. I'm currently reading Stern's run in ASM, so I won't count Hobgoblin just yet. Mysterio probably would go in my top with some others Ditko villains, but I haven't given it much tought about who would go where. I like Venom, but he doesn't call my attention too much. I don't like Carnage though, but it's cool to have a hero with different villains that appeal to different tastes[/QUOTE
I agree with you about different tastes. One thing about Spider-Man that is "Amazing""is how well the Ditko villains hold up over Half A Century later. My Ditko Spider-Man ranking is: 1: Doc Ock. 1a: Green Goblin ( Norm). 2:: Lizard. 3: Kraven. 4: Mysterio. 5: Shocker. 6: Sandman. 7: Electro. 8: Vulture. 9: Molten Man. 10: Scorpion. Does it mean every villain is legendary? No The Circus Of Crime, Tinkerer, Cat, Looter, Living Brain and The Enforcers are not. Also Chameleon is one villain that many people like, but never appealed to me.( him and Jackal are my least favorites). But Ditko's successes far outweigh his failures.
.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Does it mean every villain is legendary? No The Circus Of Crime, Tinkerer, Cat, Looter, Living Brain and The Enforcers are not. Also Chameleon is one villain that many people like, but never appealed to me.( him and Jackal are my least favorites). But Ditko's successes far outweigh his failures

One correction. The Circus of Crime is not a Ditko villain. The Ringmaster and the Circus of Crime originated in the Timely era Kirby-Simon comics and in the Marvel era appeared in Hulk stories, before being imported by Lee-Ditko into Spider-Man much like Dr. Doom from the Fantastic Four appeared in an early issue. Fairly obscure guys in the scheme of things. I happen to like The Enforcers a lot by the way.

In general I agree. Read up any interview with any Spider-Man writer and artist and they basically agree that Ditko is the GOAT in terms of character design and personality and very few villains coming after him are really on the same level. Incidentally, Lee wanted to introduce Kingpin early and pitched it to Ditko but the Sturdy One wasn't interested in a Sydney Greenstreet knock-off.

One thing that many artists and writers take as a principle is that Spider-Man is meant to be small and vulnerable looking compared to his villains. But if you see Ditko's rogues that's not always the case, they are generally people the same height, and are fairly thin, lanky and scrawny looking. Dr. Octopus is pudgy but he's not a big guy like Kingpin. So I think for Ditko it was a design principle that he rejected Kingpin. The biggest villains in his run are Ox. And the biggest physical threat Spider-Man comes across is the Hulk in ASM#14 (perhaps my favorite single issue of his run for just how flat-out insane it is).

[NC_Yankee]

One correction. The Circus of Crime is not a Ditko villain. The Ringmaster and the Circus of Crime originated in the Timely era Kirby-Simon comics and in the Marvel era appeared in Hulk stories, before being imported by Lee-Ditko into Spider-Man much like Dr. Doom from the Fantastic Four appeared in an early issue. Fairly obscure guys in the scheme of things. I happen to like The Enforcers a lot by the way.

In general I agree. Read up any interview with any Spider-Man writer and artist and they basically agree that Ditko is the GOAT in terms of character design and personality and very few villains coming after him are really on the same level. Incidentally, Lee wanted to introduce Kingpin early and pitched it to Ditko but the Sturdy One wasn't interested in a Sydney Greenstreet knock-off.

One thing that many artists and writers take as a principle is that Spider-Man is meant to be small and vulnerable looking compared to his villains. But if you see Ditko's rogues that's not always the case, they are generally people the same height, and are fairly thin, lanky and scrawny looking. Dr. Octopus is pudgy but he's not a big guy like Kingpin. So I think for Ditko it was a design principle that he rejected Kingpin. The biggest villains in his run are Ox. And the biggest physical threat Spider-Man comes across is the Hulk in ASM#14 (perhaps my favorite single issue of his run for just how flat-out insane it is).

Thank you for the.Circus Of Crime correction..It is funny that you mention Dr. Doom, because I preferred Ditko's Doom over Kirby's ( I always thought ASM 5 was one of the best drawn covers in ASM History ( ASM 50 being.número uno followed by my overall favorite comic book ever ASM 33)).

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Thank you for the.Circus Of Crime correction..It is funny that you mention Dr. Doom, because I preferred Ditko's Doom over Kirby's ( I always thought ASM 5 was one of the best drawn covers in ASM History ( ASM 50 being.número uno followed by my overall favorite comic book ever ASM 33)).

You know Doom's appearance in ASM#5 is his first non-FF appearance and its basically ground zero for Doom's reputation as the Marvel-wide villain. Spider-Man comics are generally the place where Rogues gallery transplant took effect. Villains from one hero goes to another and vice versa. Spider-Man made Doom a Marvel-wide villain, Spider-Man traded Kingpin to Daredevil in return, and later fought Juggernaut and Firelord.

[Mister Mets]

I'll give you "Skinny Kingpin" Luthor, but Dr. Doom has Triumph and Torment, Emperor Doom, Unthinkable.



He's made less than 100 appearances in ASM across all relaunches since his first appearances. The fact is in the comics in 616, he's not been very prominent. Most of his appearances was before he broke out in Daredevil. And after that it was sporadic. Back in Black is far and away his biggest story in ASM, bigger than anything before, and anything since.

In USM, Bendis kept reusing him but it was never as good as the first, and he had to do the most contrived and absurd things to keep Fisk from knowing Spider-Man is Peter despite unmasking him all the time. And ultimately, Bendis simply junked him unceremoniously after Ultimatum where Mysterio showed up and chucked him off a building.



More or less my point and argument.



That's how Kingpin was reconfigured after Wolfman skulked off. And it worked well when they brought Black Cat and Hobgoblin into the mix. But he doesn't play that role terribly often in the books after that. Right now Mayor Fisk is kneeling before the Centidemon and secretly bossing around Boomerang. So he's not a big power player in Spider-Man right now.

Opinions vary, but I think Born Again, the Elektra Saga, and Man Without Fear are better-regarded (and better) than those Doctor Doom stories. And Triumph & Torment and Unthinkable are great (haven't really read Emperor Doom.)

[comicscollector]

Kingpin counts for sure as a major Spider-Man villain.
Kingpin became a Daredevil villain but in several classic story arcs of Spider-Man he was writen as a major Spider-Man villain.So Kinggpin becoming a Daredevil villain does not mean that he is not a major Spider-Man villain as well.

[Master Planner]

Kingpin had some really great stories in his pre-Miller era, like his debut story and his "last battle" against Spidey, just before Miller's run.

Miller wanted to use many Spider-Man foes in DD and use their star power to boost Daredevil as a character. Kingpin was the one who really fitted like a glove in Miller's street/gang stories. He took a borderline Bond villain/crimelord and transformed him into a more ground to earth mob boss. Fisk would still be great in Spider-Man,but not as he is now, after Miller's creativity made him such a compelling character.

[David Walton]

Fisk is undoubtedly a major figure in Spidey-lore; I always feel hesitant branding him as a "top villain" simply because I could never really buy the mano a mano fight scenes in which Fisk hung in there with him. There were numerous such scenes throughout the Lee/Romita era and then again throughout the '70's culminating in the story in which Fisk defeats Spidey and is about to finish him off when Vanessa gives him the ultimatum of finishing him off or leaving with her (circa ASM#197 or so). Re-reading those tales now require a huge suspension of disbelief; the really early tales one could say Fisk took him by surprise, the old "he may look fat but it's all muscle" line but, after that, Spidey should have mopped the floor with him every time as he did in "Back In Black". Having said that, Fisk works really well as the King of NY; the complex figure who sometimes helps Spidey when it furthers his own interests, the shadowy overlord who is always 4 steps ahead of everybody else. In that regard, he is one of the book's best characters and always will be.

Absolutely! Also, Peter has a very different worldview than Matt, and his relationship with Fisk is unique. I thought the 1980s "Gang War" storyline did a great job exploring those differences, in spite of some really...odd creative choices getting there.