Should Spider-Man be a dad?

[Snoop Dogg]

Spider-Man is still an absurdly big youth brand, if the merchandise tsunami didn't make that apparent. Spider-Man comics are written for teens and above. That's why they have a T rating and minimal swearing, sex, or violence. Any 13 year old could grasp and enjoy Dan and Nick's stories, and they both have a very rock-solid understanding about character timelessness. Dan has even said on podcasts that people have complained about his more Stan Lee style dialogue because it makes the book read more like it's for kids, to which his reply is that's good. The exact quote is better but I'm not gonna go looking for it. It's from WordBalloon.

so Spider-Man and Norah Winters can have a 13 year old son?

Okay, well, now you're winning me over on the kid.

[Miles To Go]

Spider-Man is still an absurdly big youth brand, if the merchandise tsunami didn't make that apparent. Spider-Man comics are written for teens and above. That's why they have a T rating and minimal swearing, sex, or violence. Any 13 year old could grasp and enjoy Dan and Nick's stories, and they both have a very rock-solid understanding about character timelessness. Dan has even said on podcasts that people have complained about his more Stan Lee style dialogue because it makes the book read more like it's for kids, to which his reply is that's good. The exact quote is better but I'm not gonna go looking for it

I'd say his plots makes the book read more like it's for kids than the dialogue.

[MajorHoy]

Reed and Sue are around the same age when they both met in college.

Say what?

When did this retcon happen?

Back in stories from the 1960s, Reed had been active in World War II (a Major operating with the O.S.S. when he met up with Sgt. Fury and the Howling Commandos back in Sgt. Fury #3) and was a bit older than Sue.

[Lee]

Say what?

When did this retcon happen?

https://www.cbr.com/the-abandoned-an...he-was-twelve/

[Revolutionary_Jack]

If you don't think Marvel Comics should be approachable for newer readers, for kid/teenage readers, then we're looking at the situation through entirely different lenses.

Marvel in the 60s during the Stan Lee and Jack Kirby era wrote comics targeting a more sophisticated audience. Lee remember was a failed novelist who at the age of 40 was starting in a genre that every interview in that time confirms he had contempt for. Lee hated superheroes. He disliked the Silver Age in particular. So he geared the Marvel comics to a more sophisticated, and even a "hip" audience. He targeted college-going kids in particular, during that time he kept going to colleges and giving speeches and was popular as a speaker.

So from the very beginning they were targeting a more diverse reading public than children. DC can definitely claim to have written superheroes exclusively for kids by comparison. But Marvel can't be so disingenuous.

This is out of touch with reality. Spider-Man is a hugely popular character and brand with the youth audience.

Batman is just as popular, if not moreso, with the youth audience. He's approaching 40 and has a child. Being popular with the youth audience means zero and diddly squat in terms of being effective as a teenager and adult. Spider-Man is popular among people of all ages.

Saying popular with youth means a lot more if we are talking about say Justin Bieber or others who are popular among young kids but not liked by people of an older generation. Jar Jar Binks is popular with kids but unpopular with older viewers and others.

[Jonathangoop1811]

Hopefully when Chip Zdarsky publishes Spider-Man: Life Story we will see Peter's life as an adult, with a family maybe even a child, maybe see his son turn into the second SPider-Man, but from what I understand I believe that Peter will have a family with Gwen and not Mary Jane, which should be interesting, in here we will some stories we already know but with changes, hopefully that means having children, I believe it was already confirmed that they will touch the Kraven's Last Hunt, Secret Wars, Venom, and even Green Goblin Norman Osborn but with Gwen living. Since I belive that by the end of the story Peter will be in his late 60 or early 70.

[Miles To Go]

Hopefully when Chip Zdarsky publishes Spider-Man: Life Story we will see Peter's life as an adult, with a family maybe even a child, maybe see his son turn into the second SPider-Man, but from what I understand I believe that Peter will have a family with Gwen and not Mary Jane, which should be interesting, in here we will some stories we already know but with changes, hopefully that means having children, I believe it was already confirmed that they will touch the Kraven's Last Hunt, Secret Wars, Venom, and even Green Goblin Norman Osborn but with Gwen living. Since I belive that by the end of the story Peter will be in his late 60 or early 70.

It hasn't been outright confirmed that Gwen will live, people are just wishing really hard

My interest goes right out the window if Gwen lives. It would just feel like the love interests are interchangeable, with Marvel trying to say Peter would endure all of those trials and tribulations without needing MJ by his side or on his mind to get him through anything. Another attempt at putting the 'saintly Gwen' up on a pedastle. It is not being true to Peter's life story if it indulges the fantasy of Gwen living, that's not what happened. Peter failed Gwen, it's part of his history, his identity, his character. Give him Gwen all his days and the story becomes something else entirely.

I'd only be interested if Zdarsky were to be deliberately deconstructive and have Peter and Gwen divorce.

Also, Life Story would'nt be doing anything new aging Peter up. MC2 and RYV have already covered half of it's bases. He's had children. Several. With Mary Jane. And grown older. Not 60s/70s older, but old enough for his hair to start turning a bit grey (MC2)

[Jonathangoop1811]

It hasn't been outright confirmed that Gwen will live, people are just wishing really hard

My interest goes right out the window if Gwen lives. It would just feel like the love interests are interchangeable, with Marvel trying to say Peter would endure all of those trials and tribulations without needing MJ by his side or on his mind to get him through anything. Another attempt at putting the 'saintly Gwen' up on a pedastle. It is not being true to Peter's life story if it indulges the fantasy of Gwen living, that's not what happened. Peter failed Gwen, it's part of his history, his identity, his character. Give him Gwen all his days and the story becomes something else entirely.

I'd only be interested if Zdarsky were to be deliberately deconstructive and have Peter and Gwen divorce.

Also, Life Story would'nt be doing anything new aging Peter up. MC2 and RYV have already covered half of it's bases. He's had children. Several. With Mary Jane. And grown older. Not 60s/70s older, but old enough for his hair to start turning a bit grey (MC2)

First I don't have a problem with Gwen being alive, it's not necessary but it's not a bad thing and there are fans who whish to see Peter and Gwen together and this is a nice way to do it, also considering that in the second solicitation is confirmed gwen is alive, maybe she remains alive and marries Peter. Besides when Chip wrote Spectacular Spider-Man, he made Gwen being alive and married to Peter, so I believe that she is going to be Peter's wife.

But you are wrong, this is not Mc2 or Renew your vows, in here any child Peter have will start as infants, then toodlers, and teenagers until finally they become adults, we will get the chance to see Peter rise his children, but this will not be a story about Peter's children, this is Peter's story, it will include some of the greatest stories of Spider-Man until the present but Peter will age regularly, it will include stories we already know about but with certain twists, every story will be separated by 10 years, and it will end Peter already in his old age.

If Peter's children appear, this will not be about watching Peter's children following his footsteps, or a Spider-Family, this will be about Peter balancing his life as a hero, husband and father, even his normal job, this is Peter's story, and that is great, Mayday and Annie lived their adventures, but Peter retired temporary, or was alredy retired, in here Peter is still Spider-Man.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

...

...

Fellas, there's a forum for Life Story (https://community.cbr.com/showthread...-Bagley/page12).

You might want to go there and discuss speculations like this. Rest assured this concept you guys are discussing has indeed come up.

I think Chip Zdarsky's concept is interesting and cool, and it would be interesting if it starts a spinoff. Like based on reception and demand, Marvel may say, "Give us a full run of Spider-Man in '80s, or 70s'' based on what Zdarsky does.

[Lee]

Marvel in the 60s during the Stan Lee and Jack Kirby era wrote comics targeting a more sophisticated audience. Lee remember was a failed novelist who at the age of 40 was starting in a genre that every interview in that time confirms he had contempt for. Lee hated superheroes. He disliked the Silver Age in particular. So he geared the Marvel comics to a more sophisticated, and even a "hip" audience. He targeted college-going kids in particular, during that time he kept going to colleges and giving speeches and was popular as a speaker.

So they were targeting teenagers in college, and their most popular comic was about a teenager in college?

(But let's not pretend that younger audiences weren't buying Marvel Comics in the '60s.)

Those college aged readers in 1965 are in their 70s now, so it's a good thing Marvel kept future generations in mind.

[Mister Mets]

You all forget that there is a simple way to solve this discussion, Spider-Man: Life Story is going to be about some of the greatest stories of Spider-Man in each decade, with Peter aging at a normal pace, which means that he is bound to become a father, in the solicitations of issues #3 it was mentioned that he had a family now, that might be his wife and child, so now hopefully we will se him with his family, perhaps even see his son become Spider-Man, we will have to wait and see.

That's a six issue mini-series, not an ongoing.

Yep, and it's the same for most YA literature. The teenage lead can get older and learn life lessons, but once they become fully realised adults the story ends. The author has ownership of the IP and characters, and future revenue comes from keeping those 3 or 4 or 7 novels in print for as long as possible, always aimed primarily at the teenage demographic.

Marvel Comics' model of business is completely different. The company owns the characters and they sell new stories every week, as they have been doing for decades now.

A kid can become a Harry Potter fan, buy the 7 novels and get the complete and consistent story of the character growing up.

With Spider-Man, it's nigh-on impossible for a new fan to read the entire saga of Peter Parker's life. Even if Marvel finished its Amazing Spider-Man Epic Collection book series and kept it all in print, the reader would miss out on important developments and new character introductions that happened in Spectacular Spider-Man, Web of Spider-Man and Marvel Team-Up. Even if Marvel made every Spider-Man comic available digitally, they'd need a thorough reading order guide... and that would be tricky because issues of Amazing/Spectacular often didn't slot in neatly between each other, there was a lot of continuity overlap, sometimes even contradictions. Then there's all the changes in tone and language and setting and art style to contend with, not to mention the retcons, dated real world events, abandoned plot threads and sudden changes in charcterisations. Imagine if the first Hunger Games book was written by Stan Lee and the last was written by Nick Spencer.

So Marvel isn't really in the business of selling readers a complete saga with a beginning, middle and end. They're in the business of selling:

A. Their current product.
B. A curated selection of perennials from the back catalogue.

The current product needs to always stay appealing to the demographic they're targeting, to the newcomers and future generations. They can't count on everyone going back to read decades old comics in order to appreciate what's being done in the current product. The current product has to stand on its own.

Excellent points.

[Miles To Go]

With Spider-Man, it's nigh-on impossible for a new fan to read the entire saga of Peter Parker's life.

MC2 says hi.

Same history as 616, minus twenty years of concurrent material that isn't necessary. Culminates in his retirement and mentoring of the next generation.

Prior to his revival in Spidergeddon, one could argue that when MC2 Peter was murdered by the Inheritor Damos, that gave you closure, albeit undignified closure, to the "classic" model of Peter Parker. He had a beginning, middle, and an end for several years.

One More Day is also an undignified end, given it destroys the original timeline and denied Peter and MJ their progression and future children, effectively neutering the future progression of the Marvel universe as it originally would have been. What we have now is an AU in itself. A lie.

They can't count on everyone going back to read decades old comics in order to appreciate what's being done in the current product. The current product has to stand on its own.

So by that, you assume Marvel believe young readers drop dead after reading a year's worth of whatever story they're peddling now?

Dan Slott and Nick Spencer are continuity merchants, they spin fresh stories using the history. Marvel's info boxes encourage readers to seek back issues out, including those from classic runs.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So by that, you assume Marvel believe young readers drop dead after reading a year's worth of whatever story they're peddling now

Agreed.

Fact is this isn't the old Pre-Internet days. Now you have internet, you have youtube, you have analysis channels like Linkara. More people know what happens in stories by wikipedia, by message boards like this, through social media, through special wikis, through tvtropes, through youtube videos.

The MCU movies have inculcated several generations of viewers with the basics of continuity and saga, and before that the HP movies did that, and before that the Star Wars movies did.

So Marvel can't use old-fashioned fleeting demographic ideas to talk to the most media-savvy media-consuming and media-literate audience in the history of history.

So they were targeting teenagers in college, and their most popular comic was about a teenager in college?

Teenagers are in high school. College is for people older than 18 going into 20s and so on. College-kids are adults. And are sophisticated and knowledgable. Or at least that is the perception they had then, since college attendance increased rapidly in that era, and Stan Lee with his hunger for prestige wanted to be in with them.

You know in Conway's run, Peter had books by Sartre and Camus in his house, y'know for little kids reading. And Conway is the only writer in the history of Spider-Man to belong to Peter's real-time generation, being 19 years of age when he started and going into his 20s as he wrote.

(But let's not pretend that younger audiences weren't buying Marvel Comics in the '60s.)

They were, they were reading a Spider-Man who was older than them, and who was growing up and aging.

Those college aged readers in 1965 are in their 70s now, so it's a good thing Marvel kept future generations in mind.

The readership stagnated in the 70s and 80s as Spider-Man stopped aging and spiked again when Spider-Man got married. To quote one comics critic, who described (with total contempt) the state of Marvel in general and Spider-Man in particular:

If you take a look at a current Spider-Man comic, you’ll find that he’s maybe twenty years old, he worries a lot about whats right and what’s wrong, and he has a lot of trouble with his girlfriends...Do you know what Spider-Man was doing fifteen years ago? Well, he was about nineteen years old, he worried a lot about what was right and what was wrong and he had a lot of trouble with his girlfriends.
— Alan Moore, Blinded by the Hype, 1983, The Daredevils.

[MajorHoy]

Marvel in the 60s during the Stan Lee and Jack Kirby era wrote comics targeting a more sophisticated audience. Lee remember was a failed novelist who at the age of 40 was starting in a genre that every interview in that time confirms he had contempt for.

What do you mean "starting"?

He had been writing comic book stories for Timely Comics (Marvel's predecessor) back in the early 1940s when he was in his early 20s!

[Revolutionary_Jack]

What do you mean "starting"?

He had been writing comic book stories for Timely Comics (Marvel's predecessor) back in the early 1940s when he was in his early 20s!

You are right. My mistake there.

Yes Lee had written for Timely before and gotten the job there because he was a nephew to someone but he always saw it as a side-gig, and hackwork to pass the time before he moves on to writing the Great American Novel. The reason he used Stan Lee...he wanted to use his real name Stanley Leiber for his literary career. Lee genuinely was no fan of superheroes when starting out, or even comics.

Lee wanted Marvel to be irreverent, a little satirical, and appeal to let's say, "the grownup in the child" and make more older readers read child stuff without feeling embarassed. We are talking about a guy who tried to get Tom Stoppard, the playwright, to write for Marvel (https://www.cbr.com/marvel-comics-st...rd-playwright/).

In the period before Marvel, Lee worked on the many monster and anthology comics and so on. Not really superhero work (because in the post-war period before the EC Comics fracas, superheroes declined in popularity). This was actually the period that he and Ditko first started together.

I should have said when starting out in Marvel from the outset of the 60s era.