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  1. #376
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Yep.

    If that was the thesis of the film, it was poorly illustrated.
    It isn’t! I am dumbfounded by this. I honestly thought the movie was pretty simple but so many seem to have missed the premise. In order for anyone to meaningfully critique this film it is pretty important to understand what its message was. Only then can we actually decide if the movie got its message across.

    The premise of the movie is identity and potential. The idea that in order to fulfil one’s own personal potential you need to be yourself and to be allowed to express oneself without other people defining you, stopping you expressing yourself, or lying to you about yourself. That’s why it’s a movie about Skrulls! That’s why the lead character spends all of the movie searching for herself and the things that actually drive her. Her relationships and her aspirations. Her mentor and her purpose.

    For a large number of people this is probably a given. So obvious to be unstated. But to anyone who is not allowed to express themselves this is a vital message, and for the rest of us it’s pretty important to remember. That is an essentially feminist message right there. Many women are not allowed to be themselves, express themselves the way they would wish to, fulfil their own potential. It is also a universal message because, well, so is feminism.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 03-18-2019 at 03:27 PM.

  2. #377
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    We can be fans of the MCU and fans of Captain Marvel, and still find fundamental flaws in the storytelling of this movie.
    Yes we can, but the flaws people keep bringing up demonstrate why this is dividing critics. If you try and read this movie as a three act story about a superhero learning about their powers you will see a messy movie which doesn’t seem to tell the story properly. But it probably was never written as a three act story it was probably a four act story, and the structure just isn’t about powers. So the criticisms miss the mark.

    I know most don’t read the whole thread but anyone wanting to see what I originally said about the structure should look here. That is a snapshot of my thoughts, because they are developing, but I stand by most of it.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 03-18-2019 at 03:13 PM.

  3. #378
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatKeaton View Post
    Well, we're not talking about box office. 'Iron Man 3' used to be the most successful solo superhero movie, for instance
    Iron Man 3 is awesome.

  4. #379
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatKeaton View Post
    Well, we're not talking about box office. 'Iron Man 3' used to be the most successful solo superhero movie, for instance
    That is another movie that confuses critics. Let’s face it many fans think Stark gives up being Iron Man in that movie, they miss the point so hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Iron Man 3 is awesome.
    Yes. That’s one of a small list of MCU movies I can rewatch over and over.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 03-18-2019 at 03:32 PM.

  5. #380
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    Also, yes, the Skrulls are portrayed as victims in this movie, but as Talos indicated, his hands aren't clean. I wouldn't be so sure that the Skrulls aren't villains or villainous, or capable of seeming that way to humans if their goals conflict with Earth. The MCU has more movies to come and we might be surprised at what they do with the Skrulls next. There could easily be a Secret Invasion in the MCU's future.
    Yep, and this seems to be the way Feige sees them too, so I also expect them to be developed in different directions in future movies.

    The fact is, if you are going to tell a story about identity and being oneself, they are the perfect foils. They have to be in the movie. Plus the Kree necessarily have to be the bad guys in this story so the Skrulls thereby get to be misunderstood. It all ties up pretty perfectly with the premise.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 03-18-2019 at 03:36 PM.

  6. #381
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    Sure, Yon-Rogg was just being manipulative for his empire, a loyal soldier. That doesn't mean he gets a pass on being disrespectful. It's taking the example to the Nth degree, but in real history, most Nazis were just being loyal to their Third Reich. That doesn't excuse their war crimes. Actually, given that the Kree have been described in the comic books as practicing something like "Zen fascism," the fictional analogy to real-life fascists maybe a better analogy than I first thought.
    Well, Ronan has always been a Judge Dredd from Space, so yes it fits. There are parallels. In this particular case, they aren't fleshed out for us enough to tell, though. Neither are the Skrulls. Every detail about the two races is pretty superficial.

    Also, yes, the Skrulls are portrayed as victims in this movie, but as Talos indicated, his hands aren't clean. I wouldn't be so sure that the Skrulls aren't villains or villainous, or capable of seeming that way to humans if their goals conflict with Earth. The MCU has more movies to come and we might be surprised at what they do with the Skrulls next. There could easily be a Secret Invasion in the MCU's future.
    Yah I can see that, and thought the way Marvel might do Secret Invasion is by having it be caused by a sect of Skrulls or some other splinter group of them. That way Captain Marvel doesn't have how ever many years of her life trying to find new homes for them look like a big waste of time.
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  7. #382
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Slashfilm: The Skrulls – I think everybody was assuming that this is going to head towards a Secret Invasion. But they’re kind of left off in this movie as kind of the good guys and we have a relationship with them now. So does that mean we can’t eventually get there?

    Feige: I don’t think it means that at all. I think it means that the Skrulls are as diverse and as multilayered as any other intelligent life form. Certainly like humanity itself. And we happen to see good ones. I think there are probably better ones out there as well, like there are with any fully realized characters. But yes, the idea certainly was to subvert the expectation of the pointy-eared green aliens. And Ben Mendelsohn, even subverting people’s assumption that Ben Mendelsohn will be playing the villain.

  8. #383
    Extraordinary Member Divine Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    The flashbacks full of people telling her she couldn’t do things and her final confrontation with Yon Rogg made it pretty explicit. Maybe you weren’t paying attention.
    The flashback caught my attention and they felt like lip service to remind you that she was a woman. Yon Rogg and the other Kree payed no attention to her gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    It isn’t! I am dumbfounded by this. I honestly thought the movie was pretty simple but so many seem to have missed the premise. In order for anyone to meaningfully critique this film it is pretty important to understand what its message was. Only then can we actually decide if the movie got its message across.

    The premise of the movie is identity and potential. The idea that in order to fulfil one’s own personal potential you need to be yourself and to be allowed to express oneself without other people defining you, stopping you expressing yourself, or lying to you about yourself. That’s why it’s a movie about Skrulls! That’s why the lead character spends all of the movie searching for herself and the things that actually drive her. Her relationships and her aspirations. Her mentor and her purpose.

    For a large number of people this is probably a given. So obvious to be unstated. But to anyone who is not allowed to express themselves this is a vital message, and for the rest of us it’s pretty important to remember. That is an essentially feminist message right there. Many women are not allowed to be themselves, express themselves the way they would wish to, fulfil their own potential. It is also a universal message because, well, so is feminism.
    That’s our opinion.
    Last edited by Divine Spark; 03-18-2019 at 07:05 PM.

  9. #384
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    That is another movie that confuses critics. Let’s face it many fans think Stark gives up being Iron Man in that movie, they miss the point so hard.


    Yes. That’s one of a small list of MCU movies I can rewatch over and over.

    Isnt it about Tony dealing with his PTSD and the mistakes of his past. Him "Not being Ironman" anymore is a metaphor.

  10. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Iron Man 3 is awesome.
    It's just an average action/comedy movie with Robert Downey Jr. playing Tony Stark as an action hero without armor, depth or REAL story-arc.

    I love deconstructionism, but the movie was a childish/puerile attempt at it and totally destroyed the Mandarin character.

  11. #386
    Astonishing Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Isnt it about Tony dealing with his PTSD and the mistakes of his past. Him "Not being Ironman" anymore is a metaphor.
    There's not even a metaphor that he's not going to be Iron Man anymore. At the beginning, he is building shells as a psychological defence against his PTSD, and even literally hides inside one during an attack. At the end his affirms that the man is Iron Man and not the suits, and symbolically casts off his protective shell by blowing up all the suits he's been building, starting a "clean slate". I think only people watching without sound or subtitles thought that meant he was giving up being Iron Man.

  12. #387
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Cochese View Post
    There's not even a metaphor that he's not going to be Iron Man anymore. At the beginning, he is building shells as a psychological defence against his PTSD, and even literally hides inside one during an attack. At the end his affirms that the man is Iron Man and not the suits, and symbolically casts off his protective shell by blowing up all the suits he's been building, starting a "clean slate". I think only people watching without sound or subtitles thought that meant he was giving up being Iron Man.

    There were dozens of complaints when the next Avengers movie came out, that surely Stark gave up being Iron Man in the last movie he was in. I never understood it. I rewatched it looking for any hint that this was in the story and couldn’t see any at all.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 03-19-2019 at 05:51 AM.

  13. #388
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatKeaton View Post
    It's just an average action/comedy movie with Robert Downey Jr. playing Tony Stark as an action hero without armor, depth or REAL story-arc.

    I love deconstructionism, but the movie was a childish/puerile attempt at it and totally destroyed the Mandarin character.

    Or it is a very honest and frank story about PTSD and the fear of failure, that some critics love. And the Mandarin is the kind of character that many of us worried about when he was announced to be in the movie, and were pleasantly surprised when they subverted the stereotype.

  14. #389
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatKeaton View Post
    It's just an average action/comedy movie with Robert Downey Jr. playing Tony Stark as an action hero without armor, depth or REAL story-arc.

    I love deconstructionism, but the movie was a childish/puerile attempt at it and totally destroyed the Mandarin character.
    The whole movie Stark dealt with PTSD and as for a Story arc he learned he didn't need armors to be Iron Man because it was the man not the suit that made Iron Man Iron Man and I loved the Mandarin twist it was Fantastic.

  15. #390
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Deleted a few posts this morning, so let me be clear.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and that includes their opinion on the interpretation of a film, the themes and what they took away from it.

    Telling someone their opinion is invalid is a no-no.

    Feel free to discuss and debate your own opinions, but don't go treating your own opinion as a hard fact. People often see things differently than you do
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