The Retroactively Making DC Characters LGBTQ/bi-racial Thread: 2019 Update!

[Bored at 3:00AM]

So, for anyone not watching DCU's Doom Patrol show, they made a mighty significant change with Larry Trainor's sexuality that works so well that I honestly think it'd be a great idea to incorporate into the comics.

As far as I know, Larry never had a significant other, so making him a closeted gay man is a very interesting idea. However, it could be said that Morrison's merging of him and Natalia Vostok already made him a hermaphrodite, so adding in a homosexual angle would clutter things further.

What do you guys think?

[iron chimp]

The idea in morrison 's run as i understand it, and its quite a slippery and big / unusual concept for someone with no interest in sexual politics like myself is something like

We know what man + woman is, we know what man + man is but what is man - man / the negative man. And it turns out it is something that trascends mere physical existence and identity to become a fusion of man woman and space - basically Larry is set up as cypher for discussions of sexual identity - he is all forms of human sexuality and beyond them depending on the story.

So making gay in the comics sounds pretty weak to me compared to what he was set up as

[Agent Z]

The old thread is still open so I'm surprised this one was created but anyway...

I like the Young Justice version of Artemis Crock and her being half-Vietnamese and Jade Nguyen's sister doesn't hurt at all. I'd like to see that relationship brought into the comics.

Now at first I thought the decision to make Jade N and Artemis sisters was a random but well executed choic choice. But then I considered that both have feline based monikers - Cheshire and Tigress respectively.

Furthermore, in the cartoon both sisters are half Vietnamese. Now consider that both the tiger and the cat are animals in the Vietnamese Zodiac.

Finally, in the Vietnamese Zodiac, cats have issues with commitment while tigers tend to value family and are typically aggressive. Sounds like the two sisters.

[numberthirty]

The idea in morrison 's run as i understand it, and its quite a slippery and big / unusual concept for someone with no interest in sexual politics like myself is something like

We know what man + woman is, we know what man + man is but what is man - man / the negative man. And it turns out it is something that trascends mere physical existence and identity to become a fusion of man woman and space - basically Larry is set up as cypher for discussions of sexual identity - he is all forms of human sexuality and beyond them depending on the story.

So making gay in the comics sounds pretty weak to me compared to what he was set up as

Actually, it's even more than that.

Dr. Eleanor Poole was not the same race as Larry.

Never mind that Larry and Eleanor's individual identities essentially die when Rebis is created.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

The old thread is still open so I'm surprised this one was created but anyway...

I know, but long threads are bad for the Forums, so I started a new one so reviving my old thread (which had gotten pretty long) won't cause any technical issues.

I like the Young Justice version of Artemis Crock and her being half-Vietnamese and Jade Nguyen's sister doesn't hurt at all. I'd like to see that relationship brought into the comics.

Now at first I thought the decision to make Jade N and Artemis sisters was a random but well executed choic choice. But then I considered that both have feline based monikers - Cheshire and Tigress respectively.

Furthermore, in the cartoon both sisters are half Vietnamese. Now consider that both the tiger and the cat are animals in the Vietnamese Zodiac.

Finally, in the Vietnamese Zodiac, cats have issues with commitment while tigers tend to value family and are typically aggressive. Sounds like the two sisters.

That's a great idea. Hopefully, whenever Artemis is brought into the Young Justice comic, that'll be the case.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

The idea in morrison 's run as i understand it, and its quite a slippery and big / unusual concept for someone with no interest in sexual politics like myself is something like

We know what man + woman is, we know what man + man is but what is man - man / the negative man. And it turns out it is something that trascends mere physical existence and identity to become a fusion of man woman and space - basically Larry is set up as cypher for discussions of sexual identity - he is all forms of human sexuality and beyond them depending on the story.

So making gay in the comics sounds pretty weak to me compared to what he was set up as

That's a pretty compelling argument for not incorporating it into the comics. Once again, Morrison is so ahead of the game, everyone else is still catching up to him decades later

[Jody Garland]

It's a lil' bit wrongheaded to try to apply typical human sexuality, gender and identity matters when discussing Rebis. His name refers to the ultimate goal of Medieval alchemy, the culmination of the Great Work, that results in the perfect fusion of all opposing opposites- man and woman, black and white, gay and straight, good and evil, lead and gold , etc. It's the final stage of alchemic philosophy and is a whole lot more complicated and hoity toity philosophical than a character's sexuality. It seems like Morrison was trying to capture the sort of 'what am I?" angst the Silver Age Negative Man, but amping it up to something beyond humanity.

Morrison in particular seems obsessed with the idea of unifying opposites, since it was a major part of Final Crisis with Superman and Ultraman merging.

[iron chimp]

It's a lil' bit wrongheaded to try to apply typical human sexuality, gender and identity matters when discussing Rebis. His name refers to the ultimate goal of Medieval alchemy, the culmination of the Great Work, that results in the perfect fusion of all opposing opposites- man and woman, black and white, gay and straight, good and evil, lead and gold , etc. It's the final stage of alchemic philosophy and is a whole lot more complicated and hoity toity philosophical than a character's sexuality. It seems like Morrison was trying to capture the sort of 'what am I?" angst the Silver Age Negative Man, but amping it up to something beyond humanity.

Morrison in particular seems obsessed with the idea of unifying opposites, since it was a major part of Final Crisis with Superman and Ultraman merging.

Yeah that was definitely the end game for the character in morrison's run but that also made rebus unusable for following writers as he was "beyond" the stories he was in. Pollack dialed it back a bit and had the bandaged spectres as sort of manifestations of the totality of sexuality that rebus both embodied and transcended so there was still something to work with. He still kept an identity as well with his combination of man's and womens clothes. I cant really remember if rebus himself was actually in pollack's run much and if he was then why but something of what he embodied was there in the spectres.

[iron chimp]

That's a pretty compelling argument for not incorporating it into the comics. Once again, Morrison is so ahead of the game, everyone else is still catching up to him decades later

As numberthirty and jody say there is way more to it all. There is a single issue which i am sure someone will remember the number of where he undergoes the transformation from negative man to rebus with a lot of explanation as to what he's become. A good and suitably tripped out read. He does the same in gerard way's run too with some great art by nick derrington.

[Jody Garland]

Doom Patrol v2 #54 is the issue I think you're thinking of, if anyone is curious.

[CaptCleghorn]

So, for anyone not watching DCU's Doom Patrol show, they made a mighty significant change with Larry Trainor's sexuality that works so well that I honestly think it'd be a great idea to incorporate into the comics.

As far as I know, Larry never had a significant other, so making him a closeted gay man is a very interesting idea. However, it could be said that Morrison's merging of him and Natalia Vostok already made him a hermaphrodite, so adding in a homosexual angle would clutter things further.

What do you guys think?

I am not that familiar with many of the issues discussed by the LGBTQ community, but I am fairly confident that gender and sexuality are two different things. Without taking transsexuals or non-binary people into account there's a simple selection of male and female with homo (same). hetero (different), bi (both), and asexual (neither). Mixing new ideas of gender fluidity complicates simple labeling considerably. And this is for normal non-powered people. Throwing in merging of people together adds a factor which would make discussion important and possibly interesting, but would make traditional labeling obsolete.

I've long been a proponent of outing some silver and golden age characters as the probability of everyone who had a dead parent, radioactive spider bite, or storehouse of chemicals splashing over them all being straight seems mathematically unlikely. I'd also argue against some characters being outed as not straight. Larry Trainor's pre-Negative Man sexuality might matter if we dwell upon his need to remain closeted, but as time goes on, that need will becomes less. He's complicated enough now so that his sexual history seems irrelevant.

[j9ac9k]

So, for anyone not watching DCU's Doom Patrol show, they made a mighty significant change with Larry Trainor's sexuality that works so well that I honestly think it'd be a great idea to incorporate into the comics.

As far as I know, Larry never had a significant other, so making him a closeted gay man is a very interesting idea. However, it could be said that Morrison's merging of him and Natalia Vostok already made him a hermaphrodite, so adding in a homosexual angle would clutter things further.

What do you guys think?

As stated above Larry was merged with his doctor, Eleanor Poole not Vostok. Rebis is one of my all-time favorite characters, so I'd rather DC bring hir back than depict Larry as homosexual, but if they did that I wouldn't object either. I would just love to see the team with a book again. When the last series ended, didn't they say there were already plans for another book?

[K. Jones]

With a good writer I don't think having book Larry follow Bomer Larry would hurt. I mean the weirdness inherent to Doom Patrol helps let people know that unique POVs are going to be addressed and I wouldn't think that going the Rebis route would clutter it that much, once you divorce Larry's sex and gender and then ... well, freaking put it in a blender. In that way actually Larry could conceivably be the greatest sex & gender topic character in all superhero comics, and it's rooted mostly in his original and then Morrison-tweaked strange powers, so it's kind of baked right into what makes him unique and cool in the first place.

The Ray (II - Prime, not Earth-X) was recently made retcon-gay by Steve Orlando before featuring heavily in JLA. I'm not sure if this was taking a cue from Morrison's flashpointed Earth-10 Ray, as the E-10 Freedom Fighters of Mastermen were meant to represent those the Nazis would deem deviant, so Phantom Lady was Romani, the Dolls were Jewish, Black Condor was black ... I'm pretty sure Human Bomb was meant to be gay in that group. But since I can't remember what Ray represented I might generally be misremembering.

I also can't quite recall if changing his sexuality was meant to tie in to his Arrow-verse introduction - like I'm not sure what the chicken/egg creative situation was there. But I thought he was quite a good choice of character to retcon. In my head-canon I tend to ignore continuity-shattering crisis retcons to a degree, so I like to think Ray still had that 90s comic run where he dated Black Canary as a period where he was still closeted. Anyway I like Ray Prime and would like to see him crop up more ... not so much Earth-10 Ray.

[iron chimp]

With a good writer I don't think having book Larry follow Bomer Larry would hurt. I mean the weirdness inherent to Doom Patrol helps let people know that unique POVs are going to be addressed and I wouldn't think that going the Rebis route would clutter it that much, once you divorce Larry's sex and gender and then ... well, freaking put it in a blender. In that way actually Larry could conceivably be the greatest sex & gender topic character in all superhero comics, and it's rooted mostly in his original and then Morrison-tweaked strange powers, so it's kind of baked right into what makes him unique and cool in the first place.

Def. Just needs a slight retooling to pull him back from going full rebus and the character reaching a natural conclusion.

I dont think making him gay in comics works tho as you already have danny the street / danny la rue - the classic british theatre lovey / flaming queer and an important plot tool as the most ridiculous helicarrier or fantasticar possible to get then around.

Personally tho i think the days of dc letting transvestite acid warlocks, occultists, and magicians take over the asylum to write such things are long gone.

[Jody Garland]

Thinking on it further, I'm not sure making Larry gay in the comics would be a good idea. Part of the larger concept the show seems to be going with is using the Negative Entity as a metaphor for Larry being closeted in a bigoted time. You know, the whole 'monster inside him' thing and him having to make terms with it and be OK with who he is. It's one reason making him a period character works well (the other being test pilots were more chic in that time period than they were since). I don't think it would be offensive or anything to introduce into the comics, since it's not as explicit as metaphor as it could be, but it'd still give me some trepidation.